Freestyle Feedback on Mag impellers in OEM pumps

[D-Roc]

so is the thrust reduction nozzle design like a stock nozzle design or more like the moflow protec or the skat reduction nozzle? Can the thrust trim fit onto the protec / skat reduction trim mounts?

 

[Billybo455]

i say go 148 if you ever plan on getting any more motor then you already have. another thing to consider is rotational weight. even if the 148 prop had the same weight as a 144, it'll still take more tq to get it spinning fast. that make sense? i've been up for a really long time.

 

[D-Roc]

yup that does make sense. perfect sence.

 

[D-Roc]

hey billy you had the billet 148? would that be the D-75 magnum?

 

[Billybo455]

my new one is billet. it's a setback and moved two more inches back. kind of weird. but im hoping it works nice

 

[D-Roc]

I hope it does too and look forward to hearing what you think about it. I contacted Protec about a maxflow reduction nozzle and as you guys probably knew, are N/A. This summer at the beach i seen a yamaha racer with one on his ski, at least i thought it was. he had the 2008+ oem adj trim attached to the MoFlo nozzle. I didn't snoop too much because some racers are kinda wierd that way, they all play by the same rules but don't like to share secrets they discover that give them advantages over the others. It was awesome to see a 701 superjet with a oem 144 pump holeshot the race, and dominate the entire 140mm pumped 800's kawis. It was 1 superjet against all green. lol.

 

[OCD Solutions]

I never did ask, why are you so hung up on the 148 anyway? Do you happen to have one that you want to use or are you still researching before you buy?

 

[D-Roc]

researching before I buy. I rebuilt my pump again this winter and cannot ignore the fact that this is a pump from an old superjet that has seen many revolutions and many liters pushed through. Also, I have a repaired oem reduction nozzle that is probably not going to withstand the season. I need to get a reduction nozzle for this season and am looking at getting something that i can use down the road. I am not big on trim. I would love the xft one if i did get one. its just more money for something i am not real big on vs a moflow or the skat reduction nozzle, which is all i need right now. I think can both have some sort of trim if need be. I am not set on the 148 or the 144 so i debate with other people. Do we contradict ourselves or talk in circles a bit? yeah but if it continues the discussion and adds more info to the subject about pumps, i am all for it. sometimes too much emotion get in the way and it gets a bit sour, it happens when we talk about stuff we love so much. I am coimng to terms that some people prefer to buy ready to run setups and that is kinda the way it seems to going. other guys like me just try to get every last little bit of juice they can from what they got. both ways can have great results and make kick ass combos.

 

[D-Roc]

I have been looking around at the skat page and notice that a gp800r has a powervalve 784cc motor with a 155 pump and pushes a 13.2 pitch from yamaha. skat makes a 7/14 for a performance increase with the stock motor. I know this is in a heavy boat too compared to a superjet. I also noticed the 148/155 are sometimes listed together. not sure what that is about. It looks like steve uk's 8/15.5 would be a close start for me. I have a 771 Dasa PV with TL in a lightish setup. any thoughts?

hey billy why did you opt for the setback option for freestyle when the website claims it adds topspeed and is useful on closed course racing. Was it because it can store a bit more water infront of the prop? I like that idea. But, I am asking because i don't think the setback pump needing a special driveshaft would be worth the hassle of getting the custom shafts. I like the idea of moving the pump back the 2" which is what i think you doing as well.

 

[OCD Solutions]

Dig deeper on the GP pumps. The first ones came out with a 144 and they later bumped up to the 155. Can't remember the whole story or where I read it (posting by BK?) but I believe it backs up your current train of thought.

 

[D-Roc]

I wonder what skat would have to say if Jr. Freestyle called them and told he had a perfectly tuned very powerful 850cc motor with TL in a superjet hull and a 148mm setback 12 vein that is not getting any bottom end. I wonder if they could have helped better. If anyone should know a mag pump, it should be them.

 

[D-Roc]

If i go back over the pages i see a few posts that still have me thinking. So, I am going to go thru some of the comments to try and make sence of it.

Talk to JD before you jump into the 148. He had one. Too much prop for his 865SS. 144 is perfect for his setup.

This one has limited information but It says to much prop, not too much pump. It also looks like the 144 size pump is what the 865SS comes perfectly tuned for. Most can agree that the mag 144 is better than the tbm bandaid version of the oem 144 pump. Both can work, one better than the other for obvious reasons. choose the cost.

bigger pump probably not required until you go over 1000cc

This is a more accurate statement: A bigger pump is required when running 1000cc for full advantage of motor. (big motor needs big pump, big pump does not need big motor)
Does a ported 701 require dual 48's? No. It does not require them.
Does it work way better than dual 38's? Yes it does.
Does the 865 require the bigger pump? no, not even to win A/M freestyle.
If runnning a motor straight out of the crate without tuning, will your need a 144 pump that the crate motor is setup for? Yes.
Does a 148 pump give you more bottom end and thus load a motor different? Yes.
If a motor gets loaded different will a jetting/popoff/carb adj. be required? Yes.
Can timing adj. from a TL ignition help change the attitude of a motor? Yes.
Will a 144 mag pump used with a crate motor tuned for 144 work better than with a mismatched 148 mag without tuning of motor and a prop selection.? Yes. 100 times more.

There comp boat in amature last year, was a bob ss865 and it had a 144 mag and it was doing back flips, I'm sure if a 148mm performed better it would be in there

What do the rules for amature freestyle say about running a bigger pump than what the yamaha 62t motor came with from the factory?

I have made a previous post about if you want the best than look at the podiums and see what they run. If it is a 865ss in a bob hull using a mag pump piloted by a skilled rider that won, that is indeed a winning combo. Lets look at the winning combo a bit. I see 4 main things, as do most people. The hull, the motor, the pump, and the rider. But what about The Tuner? (that guy). Sometimes the rider is also the tuner. Other times it is an uncle, dad, brother, maybe grandma. Either way, someone has to make it work better than the other riders that are playing within the rules. So, you are the rider, You buy a hull from the hull builder, motor from the motor builder and then who do you think you should go to for the pump combo? The internet says to ask your engine builder. hmmm. okay, he didn't ride my ski, but he can build winning combos. I guess I have to buy all those parts he recommends to have a tuned ski without tuning. Or, hold on a sec, lets think about the fact, that once you have a determined pump size/prop combo, it is a well known fact that the motor is going to have to be tuned to the load being put on it. That is what the Adj. of the carbs, pipe, and timing is for.

My own example. I started with a single 48 and then added a second later on to make it duals. I also had the tbm/prop put in. It was quite expected that i would have to rejet/adj the carbs for this major different change. once i had it tuned with different head pipe settings, timing, and jets/popoff. I was happy. I then only changed my motor to a bigger Dasa 771 PV. I used the same carbs/settings. I used the P/O's head pipe settings and timing curve to start. My pump load has not changed. The motor is stronger, and the ski ripped better. I now had a base map for tuning. I start my tuning and I got the ski to run better with a different timing curve and head pipe settings. I could have left it at the P/O. settings and it worked good but that was for his pump combo/ski setup and not mine.

You were just complaining that you won't spend 600 dollars more to get a mag but you would of tried every avenue if you were me.. You make no sense

Lol, yeah that happens from time to time. I spent 600 on the tbm/prop for the oem 144. I don't want to spend another 1100 to get a 144 mag that will work only a bit better than the blueprinted 144 oem pump setup i have. Especially if I can go straight to the 148 that i will not out build down the road. Yes it will cost more to do the 148 than the jetmaniac 144 mag. But I hope a smarter move then finally building up to 1000cc and need the bigger pump.


Now I am not posting this as a know it all. It can be more of a ski building 101 for newbies/dummies. If there is false statements that need to be changed then lets work with the data/ expertise of us all to layout the facts in a way that make sence. It has been said in this post that not all of us can buy complete designer ski combos. This is who this post is meant to help. Understanding how the parts overlap and work together can give the rider/builder ability to tune the ski. Then you know why it is a certain way and what needed to be done to achieve maximim performance with the parts used.

"If it worked right the first time, what would we have learned?".

This is a good point. I think most can relate to this when building skis.

You get hurt alot don't you?

Well if your asking....I can tell you a bit more about myself so you guys don't think I am high on myself. As a child I had friends with nice toys that they put away on shelves. In my room was boxes of toys taken apart and on my shelves where the toys that I made with those parts. I took stuff apart because I need to know how it works. The toys I made usually had wires, a motor, 9V battery, and my favorite....buttons. I can ride a jetski. really, lol. I can ride it better than some but not near as good as others. I usually try and ride in a way that doesn't hurt me or others. Sometimes i try and grow my balls and work on the tricky fancy air tricks. Luckily for me, I have a big c..k and impress my lady that way. Problem with a big c..k is, other people think your c..ky. haha, sorry mods i have a sence of humor too. One more problem is I am part dutch. Wooden shoes, Wooden head, Wouldn't Listen. So I am not a pro rider, I ride flats alot on rivers and creeks, I love waves on the lakes but we get dry spells. I even survived daytona surf. Me and my ugly ski. I get up and go to work everyday to put food on the table for my family. Yes I have a son, and yes, one day he will start riding. And when he does, his ol man is going to know how to build a ski.

Thank you for reading. sorry if it is all useless. This was the longest most thought out post i have ever done and hope it finally makes a little sence. yes i am a bit crazy.

 

[squash]

Talk to JD before you jump into the 148. He had one. Too much prop for his 865SS. 144 is perfect for his setup.

Sorry, meant to say too much PUMP, not prop

 

[D-Roc]

i know, but others may not.

 

[D-Roc]

what no slow clap?

 

[Sanoman]

"It has been said in this post that not all of us can buy complete designer ski combos. This is who this post is meant to help."

Probably the most important part of this thread,cause it all started with a great question!

ok..golf clap here.

 

[Big Kahuna]

I would talk to your builder if you have one to see what he recommends. off hand, I would say 148 if your pushing 1000cc plus. 140-144 on smaller.

 

[D-Roc]

yeah i would agree that you need a 148 for 1000cc. 140 is to small for even a 701 motor if your looking for bottom end. 144 is a great all around pump for bottom end but can push you fast if need be. the 148/155 is going to move way more water as long as you don't put a thrust trim setup that is probably bored to the oem 84mm. to make it work the motor less it will need a nozzle that has a 86mm or say 87mm nozzle so that it does not work the motor too much. if you put the steepest 155 prop on your ski and removed the reduction nozzle would the motor have a hard time spinning the prop?

 

[D-Roc]

"It has been said in this post that not all of us can buy complete designer ski combos. This is who this post is meant to help."

Probably the most important part of this thread,cause it all started with a great question!

ok..golf clap here.

haha thanks buddy. i learned more here than anyone i think.

 

[Big Kahuna]

yeah i would agree that you need a 148 for 1000cc. 140 is to small for even a 701 motor if your looking for bottom end. 144 is a great all around pump for bottom end but can push you fast if need be. the 148/155 is going to move way more water as long as you don't put a thrust trim setup that is probably bored to the oem 84mm. to make it work the motor less it will need a nozzle that has a 86mm or say 87mm nozzle so that it does not work the motor too much. if you put the steepest 155 prop on your ski and removed the reduction nozzle would the motor have a hard time spinning the prop?

Tricky ran 140 mags with anything from a Big Bore to 8mil lamey's that had hit right off the bottom.... 140 when the right prop is there will give plenty of bottom end.