full spec vs black jack

[GIL]

BLAH BLAH BLAH, My carbs are better than your carbs and my mommy will whoop yer mommy!!! Now keep this thread derailed people!!! We have some useless info going here so lets keep it rollin!!!

 

[skinnyman]

As a X-racer current freerider the answer for me was DONT BUY USED AM CARBS
I send a brand new set of carbs to Full Spec talked to ED told him what my set up was and what I wanted. Ballistic bottom decient mid and dont care about the top.
I got what I paid for
When I blew up my 5mil I was riding a limited after that. Talked to ED he gave some good info and Blamo I was off and running with my limited with 48's
It hit hard on the bottom and not a lot on the top.

If you buy used and dont have really good tuning ability you will end up with a tunning nightmare.

 

[sjetrider]

Gill has a great point. if Art will work with you buy Blackjacks, If Ed will work with you use Full Specs., I havent tried Novi's recently, the old ones I could not tune to save my life, had better luck with OEM 44's.

 

[restosud]

for what the op wants,the 48's are still overkill even if tuned perfectly.his motor setup will not utilize the 48's to their potential.
i think some of you have lost sight of what he's after.
48 are better than 38's,sure.but not for his combo.

 

[GIL]

Gill has a great point. if Art will work with you buy Blackjacks, If Ed will work with you use Full Specs., I havent tried Novi's recently, the old ones I could not tune to save my life, had better luck with OEM 44's.

Ed was no help in my tuning of my Full Spec 48's and then Tricky helped me get them dam near perfect.

Brian Virgin helped me get my Novi 48 dialed in perfect w/in a few minutes.

Crammit and Art helped me get my BlackJacks dialed in perfectly w/in a few minutes.

Again-they have all been good carbs, but my BlackJacks are going to my grave with me!

It's all in WHO is willing to help YOU achieve YOUR end goal !!!

 

[scottie mac]

for what the op wants,the 48's are still overkill even if tuned perfectly.his motor setup will not utilize the 48's to their potential.
i think some of you have lost sight of what he's after.
48 are better than 38's,sure.but not for his combo.

Your opinion. I think you are 100% wrong. Making a statement like that without a reasonable explanation is a waste of bandwidth. If you think that for his set up - 701 with 190 compression and pipe - can not be better with those 48s than with stock 38s, you should stick with stock skis.

Tuned right, 48 Full Specs will be better than 38s bottom, mid AND top. When I say better, I mean throttle response and power through the entire band. If those qualities don't matter to you, then yes, by all means, stick with 38s and save yourself some money.

Scottie

 

[masterblaster]

stock 38s are not really in the comparison though.Sure they work ok, but lets at least compare with 44s. Ive found my lim ported 701 really came to life with 46s,I could feel a noticeable diff over the 44s and alot over the 38s,Running 48s afterward was virtually the same,response and power.I was comparing 46 novi and 46 full spec with 48 full specs.In our world 100 rpm isnt even worth mentioning. The timing tests and fw ive been experimenting with have been better time spent for responce,I have alot to learn here as well. I think its cool you race guys spent the time to test diff theory's. I do it when i have time,but far more prefer to actually ride......

Wax you have it mostly right with freeriders except the majority of us hit the wave wot,but we are deff looking for linear power with good response,those 8 mill racing lameys would suck for surf,A motor than turns like a switch would rag you out in 15 min. Zimmy would know that also if he ever rode one.

 

[waxhead]

I hit the wave slow then power up the face of it , if i use my lamey it pulls on the hull so hard it makes the ski dificult to manuveour on the wave due to the torque

 

[scottie mac]

Again, the tuner makes the difference. Just because you can't get it to run better, doesn't mean chit Torr.

As good as my spec ski runs, the same ski you rode, it wouldn't be half the ski it is without the right tuner. That is why you guys thought it was a 'big bore' at wavedaze. Erik said it best, most freeriders just want to bolt on and go. And there is nothing wrong with that. I am not like that, I want the absolute best out of every platform I have. I have been lucky enough to be able to get it. (having great connections is a plus) So when someone tells me that what I know will work, won't, I have to laugh. Oh, and the only person I saw at wavedaze hitting waves even close to WOT was zimmy.

Put it this way, it would be like me saying bench pressing 400lbs is simply impossible because I can't do it.

Scottie

 

[2XLR8]

The best tuner can't make an engine use more than what it needs. A spec class boat it is far from needing huge carbs. This is not to say that you can't get good power from the bottom end and all the way through the rpm range specially when you are racing and have the throttle wide open. I have no dyno but my best guess is around 120 horsepower at best for a spec Yamaha. If you run a good impeller design and good compression and set the water correctly with the correct pipe you can get good bottom end. Lets remember that the engines are not even ported.
I ran 48 mm Blackjacks on my 96 superjet limited back in 97 and they hit hard right from the start. It would be wrong to tell everyone or recommend everyone to go to 48's just because I got them to run great. The fact is there are many factors that come into play. I also ran them on my superstock and in that the bigger carbs definitely helped the mid and upper midrange way more than on the limited.
From what I hear some of the guys running triple pipe big bore GPRs are getting more rpm from the Blackjacks over the Novis. That does not mean that the Blackjacks are better for top end based on these guys findings. It merely means that for HIM and for HIS particular combination they performed better. For these guys 50 RPM on top can make a big difference in MPH at around 90 MPH speeds on pump gas. I am sure there are others who found the Novis to be better. Could it be that their engine combination and jetting used better suited that particular combination?
Like Group K said. "it is the law of physics" and you cant change it no matter how good a tuner you are..

 

[waxhead]

really you found the 48s helped top end
I find they help low end they have more available air when they engine wants to take a big gulp ie when you grab a throttle fill
To me when the engine want to inhale hard i find the big carbs hit harder more so then the little carbs
once you get the weight of air moving it doesn't seem to make as much difference ie top end

 

[GIL]

The best tuner can't make an engine use more than what it needs. A spec class boat it is far from needing huge carbs. This is not to say that you can't get good power from the bottom end and all the way through the rpm range specially when you are racing and have the throttle wide open. I have no dyno but my best guess is around 120 horsepower at best for a spec Yamaha. If you run a good impeller design and good compression and set the water correctly with the correct pipe you can get good bottom end. Lets remember that the engines are not even ported.
I ran 48 mm Blackjacks on my 96 superjet limited back in 97 and they hit hard right from the start. It would be wrong to tell everyone or recommend everyone to go to 48's just because I got them to run great. The fact is there are many factors that come into play. I also ran them on my superstock and in that the bigger carbs definitely helped the mid and upper midrange way more than on the limited.
From what I hear some of the guys running triple pipe big bore GPRs are getting more rpm from the Blackjacks over the Novis. That does not mean that the Blackjacks are better for top end based on these guys findings. It merely means that for HIM and for HIS particular combination they performed better. For these guys 50 RPM on top can make a big difference in MPH at around 90 MPH speeds on pump gas. I am sure there are others who found the Novis to be better. Could it be that their engine combination and jetting used better suited that particular combination?
Like Group K said. "it is the law of physics" and you cant change it no matter how good a tuner you are..

Who are you? Is this Art Gomez???

 

[2XLR8]

Wax I found the 48's to pull harder on the top and pull more rpm on the superrstock. I ran MSD total loss, mag pump and type 4 dry pipe. I only ran the gp 1200 reed cages because the first generation v force would not last. All my friends had to change the petal every 2 months. On the limited I ran the b pipe first and then changed to the R&D racing pipe. The 48's hit harder with the b pipe than with the R&D. The R&D did accelerate better after the boat left the line. It took some figuring out of the water lines and spray points. Lucky for me I had a good tuner and sponsor at the time. When it was fully dialed in we slightly bent the impeller and got a good hard hit along with the better acceleration and 75 more rpm on top. The top speed was about the same but got their quicker. So to answer your question yes it did hit harder with the 48's but it took someone who knew more than I to get all of it.

Gil, I like you have found the tuner that looks at the little details. I have learned a lot from Art. I asked if I could work for him and he said he did not need racers hanging around his shop. Once I proved my loyalty I actually worked in the summer months for two years helping clean shop and tearing down engines and helping with shipping. I remember getting paid only 4.50 an hour back then. It was not the money I was after, heck I would have done it for free just to get the knowledge. In the second year I could test tank a ski diagnose and repair it with out help. At this point I'm sure he was making good money off of me but I could care less.

I don't race anymore mainly because I wasn't that great. Now I just go to the river and have fun and build engines on the side. Freestyle is not my thing because I suck and I can't afford to get hurt. I sometimes think about selling my superstock but I know I would quickly regret selling it.

 

[sjetrider]

for what the op wants,the 48's are still overkill even if tuned perfectly.his motor setup will not utilize the 48's to their potential.
i think some of you have lost sight of what he's after.
48 are better than 38's,sure.but not for his combo.

They will NOT be used to their full potential but they WILL work for his set up and they will be there when he upgrades the motor over and over again.

He could actually use just one on a single intake and be fine for now. He got a GREAT deal on them from what it sounds so whay not use them overthe 38's?

 

[masterblaster]

Tuning this boat isnt rocket science,prop is hooker,ign is enhanser.fp is water set for low end,and fs carbs all have basically the same jets from Ed himself,its a matter of turning the screws,very little,their was no diff between the 46 and 48 worth talking about for freeride is all im saying,the novi 46s felt very sim to both sets of fs.I dont have a direct back to back with 44s. were not talking about tnt pipes and adjustable cdi ign here

And come on like wax said I didnt mean hitting the wave at top speed wot....errrrrrr. your only a few feet from the wave on approach as you hit it we grab wot.

 

[GIL]

Wax I found the 48's to pull harder on the top and pull more rpm on the superrstock. I ran MSD total loss, mag pump and type 4 dry pipe. I only ran the gp 1200 reed cages because the first generation v force would not last. All my friends had to change the petal every 2 months. On the limited I ran the b pipe first and then changed to the R&D racing pipe. The 48's hit harder with the b pipe than with the R&D. The R&D did accelerate better after the boat left the line. It took some figuring out of the water lines and spray points. Lucky for me I had a good tuner and sponsor at the time. When it was fully dialed in we slightly bent the impeller and got a good hard hit along with the better acceleration and 75 more rpm on top. The top speed was about the same but got their quicker. So to answer your question yes it did hit harder with the 48's but it took someone who knew more than I to get all of it.

Gil, I like you have found the tuner that looks at the little details. I have learned a lot from Art. I asked if I could work for him and he said he did not need racers hanging around his shop. Once I proved my loyalty I actually worked in the summer months for two years helping clean shop and tearing down engines and helping with shipping. I remember getting paid only 4.50 an hour back then. It was not the money I was after, heck I would have done it for free just to get the knowledge. In the second year I could test tank a ski diagnose and repair it with out help. At this point I'm sure he was making good money off of me but I could care less.

I don't race anymore mainly because I wasn't that great. Now I just go to the river and have fun and build engines on the side. Freestyle is not my thing because I suck and I can't afford to get hurt. I sometimes think about selling my superstock but I know I would quickly regret selling it.

I knew something was up!!! LOL I think you have spent tooo much time with the master because you sound JUST like him!!! (which is a compliment BTW) Art and crammit have been sooooo much help to me and taught me soooooo much. It's all in the little details!!!

 

[RiverRat]

My .02 is anything under 800cc I think dual 46's are the way to go. But if you have the dual 48's.....run what you have.

I ran both full specs and riva's (I ran 48's for years). Although the 48's made more power I think the engine runs better all around with the 46's. As crazy as that sounds I just feel the size is spot on. Art at jetworks recomends the 46mm carbs as well on my 771 lamey

38's is too small from my experience but they work good (as do most carbs) if you set them up correctly. But you will not make as much power as a 44mm, 46mm or 48mm carb

 

[restosud]

Your opinion. I think you are 100% wrong. Making a statement like that without a reasonable explanation is a waste of bandwidth. If you think that for his set up - 701 with 190 compression and pipe - can not be better with those 48s than with stock 38s, you should stick with stock skis.

Tuned right, 48 Full Specs will be better than 38s bottom, mid AND top. When I say better, I mean throttle response and power through the entire band. If those qualities don't matter to you, then yes, by all means, stick with 38s and save yourself some money.

Scottie

frankly i couldn't give a rodent's posterior if you think i'm 100%wrong.you seem to be the all knowing here and i would agree with you if you were right.but since you're not!
groupk does a lot of mild work and i can tell you that one of his mildly ported 701 with smoothed out oem 38 runs as strong as a limited race boat with 48's with a much harder hit on the bottom and mid.
not that a groupk is the only reference but his stuff usually stays together over the long haul thanks to the mild tune he provides.
you belong to the school of bigger is better and that's fine but in the op's case ,his combo will not hit harder or be much faster with the 48's especially seeing the so-so coffman.the 190 psi does not need a larger carb.carb size is in no way related to the bmep of an engine.

 

[scottie mac]

No, I belong to the school of what we find out performs the best by testing is the best. I am not a know it all, I am posting what we have found by testing for hours instead of just listening what is posted on some internet site.

Harry from Group K is a good guy, builds nice reliable play skis. But when was the last time you saw a Group K sticker on anything that won a race or freestyle competition.

I have had the privileged to work with some of the best in the industry - Judge, Ed from Full Spec, Hedlund, Randy, etc. People who's livelihood comes from their knowledge of pwc motors and how to make them perform at their very best. If you have issue with that and the findings that they have, the findings that we have found as well, oh well. Again, I posted earlier, it is my opinion you are wrong. If that means I won't be on your xmas card list, it will hurt for a couple of days, but I will get over it.

Scottie

PS
You should start building spec skis, I mean if you can get 38s to work just as good, you could save a lot of people a lot of money. Think about it, new career opportunity! Or at least a nice side job. Heck, I might even hire you.

 

[GIL]

No, I belong to the school of what we find out performs the best by testing is the best. I am not a know it all, I am posting what we have found by testing for hours instead of just listening what is posted on some internet site.

Harry from Group K is a good guy, builds nice reliable play skis. But when was the last time you saw a Group K sticker on anything that won a race or freestyle competition.

I have had the privileged to work with some of the best in the industry - Judge, Ed from Full Spec, Hedlund, Randy, etc. People who's livelihood comes from their knowledge of pwc motors and how to make them perform at their very best. If you have issue with that and the findings that they have, the findings that we have found as well, oh well. Again, I posted earlier, it is my opinion you are wrong. If that means I won't be on your xmas card list, it will hurt for a couple of days, but I will get over it.

Scottie

PS
You should start building spec skis, I mean if you can get 38s to work just as good, you could save a lot of people a lot of money. Think about it, new career opportunity! Or at least a nice side job. Heck, I might even hire you.

I tried what I read on here first. (FS 48s), they were good, rode a similar motor ski w/Novi 48 single and liked it better, rode several skis w/similar motor package and BlackJacks-Love em.

I would be sooooo much better off financially had I rode as many skis as I could have 3 years ago-then picked the one I liked the most and copied it to the very last zip tie and torque spec!!! I know thats easier said than done on the racing side of things, but in freestyle we don't hide much from each other. (Unless you happen to own the grandmaster spankmaster). lol