Hand guns

[swapmeet]

Of course it all boils down to shot placement, but all things being equal 'I.e. not a specific round' I prefer 45 because its a big, slow round. It has a lot of energy but is less likely to over penetrate. The muzzle velocity is a good way to quantify this. 9mm, light, fast, but more likely to have enough energy to continue through an attacker, and possibly someone else. 45, not as much. This is my opinion based on research and reading ive done. And yes, 45 has these benefits at the cost of capacity.

I feel that in a SHTF scenario, a basic JHP 45 round would be more effective and safer than a comparable 9mm. And I think both are equally available.

Ive heard the Hornady self defense rounds are great performers though. Not arguing that. But I figure 1 in 10 consumers use it just because of all the choices out there.

I carry Federal 230gr HST +p, its a fairly devastating round that is bonded. I have and carry +P because that is the only flavor I can find 90% of the time. I love the round though. I pulled the a bullet out of the spine of a 140lb wild boar that I shot at 90yards. Some of the 'petals' sheared off on the bone, but the round itself stayed bomded together completely.

 

[RSKI]

Of course it all boils down to shot placement, but all things being equal 'I.e. not a specific round' I prefer 45 because its a big, slow round. It has a lot of energy but is less likely to over penetrate. The muzzle velocity is a good way to quantify this. 9mm, light, fast, but more likely to have enough energy to continue through an attacker, and possibly someone else. 45, not as much. This is my opinion based on research and reading ive done. And yes, 45 has these benefits at the cost of capacity.

I agree that shot placement is important, but it's also more difficult as recoil increases while using larger calibers.

A .45 will penetrate further at a lower velocity than it will at a higher one. (Excluding other variables) In example: if you shot a hog at 100 yards the bullet would penetrate further into the animal than if you shot the animal at point blank range with the very same gun and ammo.

The reason for this is simply that the bullet expands more at a higher velocity, therefore dumping its energy more rapidly than the same bullet impacting the same medium at a lower velocity.

Lower velocities can lead to over penetration in any caliber. Velocity is your friend when you want rapid expansion and the proper amount of penetration.

Hope I'm making sense. There's a lot more that goes into it than just a few paragraphs.

 

[swapmeet]

A larger diameter object going slower penetrates farther than a smaller object that is going faster?



Wut?

 

[Joker]

A larger diameter object going slower penetrates farther than a smaller object that is going faster?



Wut?

Kinetic energry.

=1/2 (mass) (velocity)^2

And surface area of the bullet. And the material you are shooting through.

 

[Jetfiend]

Swappy, do you have a .45 rifle? I can't imagine you hit a piggy that small at 90 yards with a pistol?

 

[RSKI]

A larger diameter object going slower penetrates farther than a smaller object that is going faster?



Wut?

Slower velocity = less expansion. Less expansion = more penetration. This would be in an apples to apples comparison. Not comparing different calibers to each other.

 

[RSKI]

Swapmeet,

A non-expanding FMJ would behave like your are saying. An expanding bullet like a hollow point behaves completely different.

Let's say you shoot a 9mm hollow point into gelatin at point blank range from a Glock and the result is 12" of penetration. (Just an example) now let's say you take that very same bullet and somehow load it to a very high muzzle velocity, say 2200 fps just to exaggerate the effect. Now you shoot the same gelatin, the bullet will expand so rapidly that the penetration might be only 7 inches. Now if you load it to a low velocity the same bullet may penetrate further than both previous tests if it doesn't expand properly, basically just poking a hole in the gelatin.

 

[Idok]

Swappy, do you have a .45 rifle? I can't imagine you hit a piggy that small at 90 yards with a pistol?

Why not?

We plink 6" plates at 90-100 yards all the time w .45 1911's

 

[wanderer1]

Why not?

We plink 6" plates at 90-100 yards all the time w .45 1911's

That's good shooting there. Outta my league for sure, even with STI's.

 

[swapmeet]

I was using a Beretta CX4 carbine. Cool in theory but the internal slide was very heavy and as it cycled it had more 'recoil' than I cared for. Not recoil from the round, but recoil from the slide stopping at the back of its stroke.

And yeah, 90yards with a pistol lol... No way for me (but you bet I'm gonna try next chance I get)... That's impressive.




@Riley, I kinda kinda knew where you were headed but I wanted you to spell it out cause I knew you could and would . I will concede that you have much more working experience on this topic than I do via basic research. Your explanation makes sense and ill probably do more reading because of it. But ultimately I'm gonna 'stick to my guns' in a literal sense. I've invested heavily into my caliber of choice and my carry weapon. I think they're both good choices for self defense, even with the obvious draw back of capacity. My EDC rounds are plus P's so by your explanation they should be more effective than standard JHP ammo. I do appreciate the time and the explanation.

Now You've got me thinking about what people are doing with suppressed guns. Because they typically use a heavier, subsonic round. I guess expansion is almost a impossibility for that scenario?

 

[wanderer1]

I run same ammo suppressed or not without issue. I've never run into or heard of a need to use sub sonic but there could be a need to use it that I'm unaware of. No issues here. Suppressed is best by a long shot. I don't know why as a society we are so afraid of suppressors. They make us put mufflers on our cars, most on this site (myself included) are pro water box. Suppressor is well spent money IMO.

 

[OCD Solutions]

I have all of my handguns staged with 9mm Hornady Critical Defense FTX. 2nd Mag is staggered with FTX and FMJ. 3rd, 4th and 5th mags are 100% FMJ. If I can't get it done with that, a more expensive gun or bigger caliber isn't going to make that much of a difference.

http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-Luger-115-gr-Critical-Defense/

Many say the .38 special is good defensive caliber as well but this article really made me think twice about what caliber was truly adequate.

The gun did it's job and stopped any harm that was coming to this lady and her family but shouldn't this story end in a morgue, not a courtroom? I would have thought placement played a huge role in this guy surviving but now I want to know what rounds she was using.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-mom-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/story?id=18164812

A mother of two has been hailed a hero by her husband after she shot an intruder in their Loganville, Ga., home last Friday afternoon.

"She protected the kids. She did what she was supposed to do as a responsible, prepared gun owner," said her husband, Donnie Herman, in an interview with ABC's Atlanta affiliate WSB-TV.

According to Herman and the Walton County Sheriff's Office incident report, Melinda Herman was working at home when a man began to ring the doorbell. She called her husband at work, who told her to gather their 9-year-old twins, a boy and a girl, and go hide. All three of them went to an upstairs crawl space, and Melinda brought along a .38 caliber handgun to the hiding place.

Her husband, meanwhile, called the police. In the 911 recording, Herman can be heard saying, "She shot him. She's shooting him, she's shooting him. Shoot him again."

"I heard him pleading," her husband said to the 911 operator. "He was screaming."

The man allegedly broke into the house and rummaged around before making his way to the crawl space, where he found the mother and children hiding.

"The perpetrator opens that door, and of course at that time he's staring at her, her two children and a .38 revolver," said Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman to WSB-TV.

Melinda Herman shot the intruder five times, hitting him in the face and neck. Chapman said she told the man if he moved she would shoot him again, although she had run out of bullets.

"The guy is [heard] telling her to quit shooting," said Chapman.

The intruder, who police identified as 32-year-old Paul Slater, managed to get to his car and as he tried to flee, crashed into a tree. Deputies later found him in a neighbor's yard.

Melinda Herman and her children, in the meantime, had sought refuge in a neighbor's home.

"Her life is saved and our kids lives are saved. And that's all I can say," said Donnie Herman.

Slater is currently in the Gwinnett Medical Center, receiving treatment for his injuries, which deputies described as serious. A family member told WSB-TV that Slater was on a ventilator and had endured puncture wounds to his lungs, liver and stomach.

 

[RSKI]

@Riley, I kinda kinda knew where you were headed but I wanted you to spell it out cause I knew you could and would . I will concede that you have much more working experience on this topic than I do via basic research. Your explanation makes sense and ill probably do more reading because of it. But ultimately I'm gonna 'stick to my guns' in a literal sense. I've invested heavily into my caliber of choice and my carry weapon. I think they're both good choices for self defense, even with the obvious draw back of capacity. My EDC rounds are plus P's so by your explanation they should be more effective than standard JHP ammo. I do appreciate the time and the explanation.

Now You've got me thinking about what people are doing with suppressed guns. Because they typically use a heavier, subsonic round. I guess expansion is almost a impossibility for that scenario?

swap,
Don't think I'm discrediting the.45 or your choice in firearms. We both know the.45 will get the job done. Basically I was just discussing how improved bullet design has made the 9mm a legitimate choice as well.

As far as sub-sonic ammo, you are correct, it is very difficult to get a rifle bullet to expand at sub-sonic velocities if it was designed for normal high velocity use. A rifle bullet would likely have to be specifically designed for sub-sonic use to expand very much. Even then it is difficult because the bullet typically has to be very heavy for sub-sonic loads, which puts it on the lower end of stability. This means the bullet might yaw or tumble upon hitting gelatin, so at that point expansion is out the window and the bullet will behave unpredictably.

I run same ammo suppressed or not without issue. I've never run into or heard of a need to use sub sonic but there could be a need to use it that I'm unaware of. No issues here. Suppressed is best by a long shot. I don't know why as a society we are so afraid of suppressors. They make us put mufflers on our cars, most on this site (myself included) are pro water box. Suppressor is well spent money IMO.

Suppressors are great! I agree with you completely. Everyone should have one. It's noise pollution.

The advantage of sub-sonic ammo is noise reduction. Full velocity loads are still noisy when suppressed, unlike hollywood makes it seem. When the bullet breaks the sound barrier you're going to hear it crack. Sub-sonic ammo on the other hand is very quiet when fitted through a suppressor. You can literally hear the hammer strike the firing pin, and often your can hear the bullet strike the target. Down side with a gas gun is that it probably won't cycle your action unless your gun is set up for only sub-sonic. Bolt gun suppressed with sub-sonic = just plain awesome. Tons of bullet drop, but still fun as heck.

I have all of my handguns staged with 9mm Hornady Critical Defense FTX. 2nd Mag is staggered with FTX and FMJ. 3rd, 4th and 5th mags are 100% FMJ. If I can't get it done with that, a more expensive gun or bigger caliber isn't going to make that much of a difference.

http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-Luger-115-gr-Critical-Defense/

Many say the .38 special is good defensive caliber as well but this article really made me think twice about what caliber was truly adequate.

The gun did it's job and stopped any harm that was coming to this lady and her family but shouldn't this story end in a morgue, not a courtroom? I would have thought placement played a huge role in this guy surviving but now I want to know what rounds she was using.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-mom-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/story?id=18164812

OCD,
38 special probably has its place, but I'm not going to use a revolver for personal defense. Better than nothing though, and easy to learn to use. Sometimes a person might not have the strength to rack the slide on a semi-auto.

P.S. I like how you're talking about what is in your 4th and 5th mags, now that's what I'm talking about!

 

[Peter123]

I can't remember if anybody posted this or not, and I'm too lazy to go back and look.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0

 

[RSKI]

I'm not posting this to promote our products, we can't make this stuff fast enough anyway. Just thought I'd get anyone who is interested the links to look at it.

There is a lot of information and pictures of penetration of our different types of ammunition in this .pdf. (I'd use a computer, not a phone to look through it.)
http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/hornady_tap_report.pdf

There is a video of our testing procedure here: http://www.hornadyle.com/resources/events-demos/

 

[Quinc]

I'm not posting this to promote our products, we can't make this stuff fast enough anyway. Just thought I'd get anyone who is interested the links to look at it.

There is a lot of information and pictures of penetration of our different types of ammunition in this .pdf. (I'd use a computer, not a phone to look through it.)
http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/site/files/hornady_tap_report.pdf

There is a video of our testing procedure here: http://www.hornadyle.com/resources/events-demos/

Rileym21! you work for Hornady?! Any chance you guys sell brass and bullet seconds/blemished?

 

[Peter123]

Even a 22 has "stopping power".

From today's news:

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/daughter-kills-mother-dad-kills-daughter/nbBSL/

A two-decade family feud came to a violent end when a man shot dead the two home invaders that killed his wife and son, not knowing the assailants included his long-estranged daughter, authorities said Sunday.

Though the investigation of Friday's shootings continues, authorities said it appears Josephine and Jeffrey Ruckinger planned to murder her family at their rural central Pennsylvania home — but it remains unclear what exactly led to the deadly confrontation.

"They parked at the bottom of a long driveway, and walked up, heavily armed," said Cambria County District Attorney Kelly Callihan.

Josephine Ruckinger was armed with a sawed-off 12-gauge shotgun and her husband had a Derringer pistol and a .22-caliber semi-automatic handgun as they approached the Frew family home in Ashville, about 40 miles southwest of State College, according to investigators.

John Frew, his wife Roberta, and their son John Jr., 47, had just returned from dinner out, and were watching TV in the living room of the white mobile home when there was a knock at the door, authorities said.

Police say Roberta, 64, answered the door, and cried out something like "Oh my God, they have guns!" before her daughter shot her at point-blank range. John Jr. then may have attempted to arm himself with a gun, but Jeffrey Ruckinger shot him multiple times in the chest, killing him, police said.

The elder Frew, 67, grabbed a .22 revolver and came out from the bedroom to find the daughter he didn't initially recognize pointing the shotgun at him. Frew fired once, hitting her in the head, then turned and exchanged fire with Jeffrey Ruckinger, killing him. He then called police.

Josephine Ruckinger was still alive when police arrived, but later died at an area hospital. John Frew was not hurt.

Callihan said that the preliminary investigation suggests that the elder Frew and his family were victims "of a pre-planned murder" plot, and that he acted in self-defense. Police also found a can of gas and lighter fluid in the Ruckingers' car.

Ballistics and toxicology tests are pending, investigators said.

Authorities are still exploring possible motives, but say there may have been burglaries and robberies at the Frew residence in the past.

A relative, Virginia Cruse, said the daughter and mother did not get along, but that she had no idea what spawned Friday's tragedy. The daughter had "a hatred toward the family," she said.

When Josephine was about 20, she and a boyfriend trashed her parents' home and stole items including a pistol, then fled to Pittsburgh, Cruse said. After that, she said, "more or less, they disowned her."

Jeff Ruckinger worked for a tire repair company and Josephine had disabilities that prevented her from working, Cruse said.

 

[RSKI]

Rileym21! you work for Hornady?! Any chance you guys sell brass and bullet seconds/blemished?

Unfortunately we do not. Honestly we don't have anything extra laying aroundright now. Often the seconds are sold to firearms manufacturers for testing.

 

[Idok]

I was using a Beretta CX4 carbine. Cool in theory but the internal slide was very heavy and as it cycled it had more 'recoil' than I cared for. Not recoil from the round, but recoil from the slide stopping at the back of its stroke.

And yeah, 90yards with a pistol lol... No way for me (but you bet I'm gonna try next chance I get)... That's impressive.




@Riley, I kinda kinda knew where you were headed but I wanted you to spell it out cause I knew you could and would . I will concede that you have much more working experience on this topic than I do via basic research. Your explanation makes sense and ill probably do more reading because of it. But ultimately I'm gonna 'stick to my guns' in a literal sense. I've invested heavily into my caliber of choice and my carry weapon. I think they're both good choices for self defense, even with the obvious draw back of capacity. My EDC rounds are plus P's so by your explanation they should be more effective than standard JHP ammo. I do appreciate the time and the explanation.

Now You've got me thinking about what people are doing with suppressed guns. Because they typically use a heavier, subsonic round. I guess expansion is almost a impossibility for that scenario?

yes...

the subsonic round, lets say a 300 blackout....shot out of a suppressor is going to expand less and penetrate more than a supersonic round


subs use heavier bullets


when you shoot a hog with a sub it typically pokes right thru (keep in mind the bullet tumbles the instant the tip hits the target)...so you get a .30 cal entrance but a gaping larger than .30 exit


with a supersonic round the bullet penetrates and then expands/explodes at which point it may or may not exit the other side

 

[Idok]

I have all of my handguns staged with 9mm Hornady Critical Defense FTX. 2nd Mag is staggered with FTX and FMJ. 3rd, 4th and 5th mags are 100% FMJ. If I can't get it done with that, a more expensive gun or bigger caliber isn't going to make that much of a difference.

http://www.hornady.com/store/9mm-Luger-115-gr-Critical-Defense/

Many say the .38 special is good defensive caliber as well but this article really made me think twice about what caliber was truly adequate.

The gun did it's job and stopped any harm that was coming to this lady and her family but shouldn't this story end in a morgue, not a courtroom? I would have thought placement played a huge role in this guy surviving but now I want to know what rounds she was using.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-mom-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/story?id=18164812

for my EDC...the first round is 147gr subsonic, the rest are FMJ's.....magazine is typically downloaded by 1 as well..