Other PHP 937 or DASA 970?

[FearMyWrX]

The only down side with the DASA engines IMO is their port timing is REALLY HIGH. This means you need to run high compression (race fuel), programable timing, and gnar pipe (pfp) to get the most out of the engine.

Thats with the DASA port specs and in house porting. If I understand correctly, they are starting to machine their cylinders (including cylinder kits)with the high port timing. Im assuming so it takes less time for them to port. With that being said, they are taking the option away from other builders who would like to lower the port timing for customers that don't want to run race fuel, programable timing, and a pfp.

The only way around this is machine down the cylinder or the cases to lower the port timing.

 

[DAG]

What cylinder does PHP use?

 

[Crab]

What cylinder does PHP use?

His own if I remember correctly.

 

[Tommygunz]

Yes it is Zack's own custom designed cylinder.

 

[Billybo455]

The only down side with the DASA engines IMO is their port timing is REALLY HIGH. This means you need to run high compression (race fuel), programable timing, and gnar pipe (pfp) to get the most out of the engine.

Thats with the DASA port specs and in house porting. If I understand correctly, they are starting to machine their cylinders (including cylinder kits)with the high port timing. Im assuming so it takes less time for them to port. With that being said, they are taking the option away from other builders who would like to lower the port timing for customers that don't want to run race fuel, programable timing, and a pfp.

The only way around this is machine down the cylinder or the cases to lower the port timing.

the internet, full of people telling what they heard from someone else. you run total loss, powerfactor, and race gas anyways to get the most of your boat. so once again someone says something about port timing. i rode a pump gas 10 mil 1100 at worlds, ski was nothing but nasty on the bottom. after the mid it started to fall off. is that how a high port timed motor runs? i'm not trying to tell you guys to run a dasa or a php. i don't really care who runs what, but this is nonsense. strap them down to a dyno if you want to see the usable power for a motor. i can provide a dasa and a dyno if someone wants to provide a php.

 

[FearMyWrX]

the internet, full of people telling what they heard from someone else. you run total loss, powerfactor, and race gas anyways to get the most of your boat. so once again someone says something about port timing. i rode a pump gas 10 mil 1100 at worlds, ski was nothing but nasty on the bottom. after the mid it started to fall off. is that how a high port timed motor runs? i'm not trying to tell you guys to run a dasa or a php. i don't really care who runs what, but this is nonsense. strap them down to a dyno if you want to see the usable power for a motor. i can provide a dasa and a dyno if someone wants to provide a php.

Im glad you took everything I said out of that... In not denying that you can have a nice hitting dasa pump gas engine. Im just saying, it sucks that by them starting to machine the cylinders like that, it's taking the option away from the consumer... but, for their purpose I can see why.

If I'm completely off, let me know. Of course I've hear it from someone else (an known engine builder) Im not machining DASA cylinders... Are you?

 

[tipafew]

I see both sides of this one. I have talked to a few people with SS Dasa motors that were less than impressed with their low end. However, I also rode a 10 mill 1100 a few weeks ago that was INSANE and it was B pipe, pump gas, and enhancer.

I would like to see a true side by side comparison of the Dasa 4 mill vs. a PHP 4 mill with the exact same set up. Spending the big bucks on the right carbs, pipe, ignition, and pump has to play a huge role. I have no loyalty to either brand. Would just like to see a fair comparison.

the internet, full of people telling what they heard from someone else. you run total loss, powerfactor, and race gas anyways to get the most of your boat. so once again someone says something about port timing. i rode a pump gas 10 mil 1100 at worlds, ski was nothing but nasty on the bottom. after the mid it started to fall off. is that how a high port timed motor runs? i'm not trying to tell you guys to run a dasa or a php. i don't really care who runs what, but this is nonsense. strap them down to a dyno if you want to see the usable power for a motor. i can provide a dasa and a dyno if someone wants to provide a php.

 

[Billybo455]

Im glad you took everything I said out of that... In not denying that you can have a nice hitting dasa pump gas engine. Im just saying, it sucks that by them starting to machine the cylinders like that, it's taking the option away from the consumer... but, for their purpose I can see why.

If I'm completely off, let me know. Of course I've hear it from someone else (an known engine builder) Im not machining DASA cylinders... Are you?

i guess you could say i am. ideas i suggest are now being used by some of the biggest names in the trade. pretty sure the guy you are referring to is trying to do something i suggested years ago. which is also why i'm running a powervalve polaris motor. stupid high port timing.... but it's about setup.

let's think about what you just said. "it sucks that by them starting to machine the cylinders like that, it's taking the option away from the consumer." if they were that bad it wouldn't hit....

stock strokes from dasa and x metal both suck. i tried to get this going about two years ago. put motors offered by builders with there tuner there to set it up on a dyno. not for peak hp or anything, but to see a general powerband. no takers. i even had one respected engine builder here pm asking me not to do it. if you doubt me and my abilities, come to the free ride and give a ski i built a shot.

 

[g-ski]

I've been reading this with interest because hopefully I may get to ride whatever Smitty ends up with.:fingersx: Unfortunately, like a lot of these threads, I'm more confused now than when I started. It's great to have lots of options, but with limited funds, how do you avoid wasting money? I guess you have to get a builder you trust and go for it.:shrug:...............after the motor pick then comes electronics(TL,charging,...), pump, maybe a lw hull,.......................o boy....

 

[Tommygunz]

I've been reading this with interest because hopefully I may get to ride whatever Smitty ends up with.:fingersx: Unfortunately, like a lot of these threads, I'm more confused now than when I started. It's great to have lots of options, but with limited funds, how do you avoid wasting money? I guess you have to get a builder you trust and go for it.:shrug:...............after the motor pick then comes electronics(TL,charging,...), pump, maybe a lw hull,.......................o boy....

Having a trustworthy builder is key......then comes cost. I had my heavy ass surf Bob with stock pump,stock electronics with msd enhancer and lightened flywheel.

Next build is light small hull with 155 pump and total loss That will bring motor setup to a whole new level!

 

[FearMyWrX]

i guess you could say i am. ideas i suggest are now being used by some of the biggest names in the trade. pretty sure the guy you are referring to is trying to do something i suggested years ago. which is also why i'm running a powervalve polaris motor. stupid high port timing.... but it's about setup.

let's think about what you just said. "it sucks that by them starting to machine the cylinders like that, it's taking the option away from the consumer." if they were that bad it wouldn't hit....

stock strokes from dasa and x metal both suck. i tried to get this going about two years ago. put motors offered by builders with there tuner there to set it up on a dyno. not for peak hp or anything, but to see a general powerband. no takers. i even had one respected engine builder here pm asking me not to do it. if you doubt me and my abilities, come to the free ride and give a ski i built a shot.

Sounds like your know your way around an engine... Much more that I do. Ill admit that. Im trying to discuss and learn, arguing isn't my intent. Doesn't sound like your liking the usage of my word "port timing". Maybe the higher stroked engines don't have the same issue with the higher port timing as the smaller stoke.

Therefore, are you suggesting that a SS or lower stroke engine wouldn't benefit from a lower port timing, especially if the purchaser wanted to run pump, enhancer, and b-pipe? Also, is it fair to say that every DASA cylinder should be ported exactly the same regardless of displacement / intent? I can agree with you... I've been consistently disappointed with many SS DASA cylinders (except for one that wasn't ported by DASA) running pump gas, MSD Ench, b-pipe. I've never ridden an x-scream set-up over here on the West Coast.

 

[Billybo455]

i'm not trying to make this an argument either. truth is i'm pretty sure the guy will be stoked with either the 4 mil php or 10 mil dasa.

as for the stock stroke i think those cylinders are to much for a plain 62t bottom end. not enough velocity or crankcase pressure to support all the added port area. i know a couple 760 big bores i've rode hit way harder then any stock stroke i've ever been on. even with total loss and a pfp i think stock strokes are a waste of time.

 

[masterblaster]

those 760 bb motors you speak of were stock strokes..they just are not setting up the port area,timing and shape correctly for low comp pump gas setups in those smaller stock stroke billet cylinders, largely because even the 5 axis cant get to it to create a contoured rounded port and its too much work to hand shape it.
Leaves one to wonder how a larger bore stock stroke motor would run with large rounded ports with proper port mapping for low comp motors,with cases ported heavily...its all about flow.crankcase pressure would be much higher and the air flow speed would be greased lightning

 

[Billybo455]

those 760 bb motors you speak of were stock strokes..

i left my reasoning why the stock cylinder 760 worked better then the billet cylinders. i can't tell you why their ports are prolly the same on all their motors. just trying to save money i suppose.

a five axis machine should have no problem with compounded shapes.maybe their programmers aren't up to the task? i'm not up to date on cnc's nor do i know everything about them. so i'll have to take your word.

 

[Nuklear6]

Ok this may be long....

As for the dasa port timing. The ports being "too tall" is mostly only true on the SS motors. They purposely make them a bit higher as they feel as if the stock stroke engines would more commonly be put in a variety of boats with a variety of different uses (ie buoy running, and speed runs in +08 sj hulls). And it is true that they are now having there sleeves made to the heights they normally port them to. Keep in mind that these engines with house dasa port timing can have great bottom end with a low pitched prop. The low pitched prop however will not make the same trust on the top end as a steeper version at the same hp/rpm. I have built two of the SS dasa motors with the port timing at what I feel they should be at for low end power/ freestyle riding (this requires machine work). The owners of these engines have been VERY happy with what i did and they both turn a steeper prop then most SS dasas. I am going to be offering this modification openly. Keep in mind by no means am i saying my configuration of the dasa cylinders will make more power then the house dasa porting, im merely saying it might be a bit better tailored to many riders needs on this site. Also Keep in mind those SS engines with race gas type compression can get away with these higher ports, as the compression tends to always help bottom and mid range.

Now as far as strokers go. When properly set up two engines with equal cc's and compression, the longer stroke will make more power. But as the stroke increases so do the complications. Rod angle and piston speeds will def work against reliability. That being said i come from building race engines (micro sprints), these engines are ALWAYS WFO. And the difference in reliability and wear on an engine that is held 90% of its run time at 7800-10000 rpm greatly differs from one that is rarely run wide open. Therefore the difference in wear between stock stroke and a larger stroker in a freestyle jet ski engine will not be as great as one of my race engines. My race engines bore and stroke is 66.4mm x 77.5mm (single cylinder @ 268.2cc) and makes 92hp on methanol. But with a race engine that has a stroke thats 11mm bigger then the bore and 5.5 mm over stock the wear and part fatigue is MUCH greater then those closer to stock stroke. But my 77.5 strokers win ALOT of races.

Strokers make power!!! But at a cost, both $$ and reliability

 

[zeski25]

I agree with Steve, the 1100 cost as much as the 1000 and makes much better power. We have one here set up on pump gas and it rips!



Chris

 

[SmittySX]

Great info guys, thank you.
so basically if I'm going to spend the money why not just get the 1100..?
Would a b pipe be Allright to run on such a big motor..?

 

[wsuwrhr]

I don't think that headpipe is nearly big enough for a one liter engine.

Great info guys, thank you.
so basically if I'm going to spend the money why not just get the 1100..?
Would a b pipe be Allright to run on such a big motor..?

 

[jahimmelspach]

I am running a b pipe on my 1 liter. The headpipe is bored to around 52mm. Also the stinger mod helps. Guys on here experience great low end on a 1liter with a b pipe, but at around 5000 rpm it won't hit nearly as hard as a pfp.
My .02

 

[Matt_E]

My 970cc was very mild with B-Pipe. It woke up A LOT with the PFP.