Super Jet Still Bogging... it can't be the carb....

dragginblazer

Do Good Jetski Crew
Bring it out Sunday and we can get some gopro footage of the problem. It falls on its face horribly then suddenly the rocket boosters kick in and its launched from the water. Shortened fx1 is very sketchy....I can't wait for mine to be finished :)

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smoofers

Rockin' the SQUARE!!!!
Site Supporter
Location
Granbury, TX
It falls on its face horribly then suddenly the rocket boosters kick in and its launched from the water.

Which is why I think it's pop off. Motor starves for fuel, fuel pump builds enough pressure to pop open the needle and the bam, motor runs great.

Lower the pop off pressure
 

Mark44

Katie's Boss
Location
100% one place
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Bring it out Sunday and we can get some gopro footage of the problem. It falls on its face horribly then suddenly the rocket boosters kick in and its launched from the water. Shortened fx1 is very sketchy....I can't wait for mine to be finished :)

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Carb issues right there. I am at 15 on my pop off.
Mark44
 

Waternut

Customizing addict
Location
Macon, GA
Going back to the original post.... Swapmeet has run 112.5 pilot up to 130, he is running a 95g spring, and has tried both a 1.5 N/S and a 2.0 N/S. If it was the popoff, he should've hit a combination in there that would've gotten him close to running properly.

Call that guy up at the shop and ask him if he did a leakdown test on the motor. If he says no, I think you should start there. When I bought my first standup, I fought electrical, carb, pump, and other issues before realizing that my problem was due to multiple leaks in the crankcase and crank seals.
 

smoofers

Rockin' the SQUARE!!!!
Site Supporter
Location
Granbury, TX
Going back to the original post.... Swapmeet has run 112.5 pilot up to 130, he is running a 95g spring, and has tried both a 1.5 N/S and a 2.0 N/S. If it was the popoff, he should've hit a combination in there that would've gotten him close to running properly.

Call that guy up at the shop and ask him if he did a leakdown test on the motor. If he says no, I think you should start there. When I bought my first standup, I fought electrical, carb, pump, and other issues before realizing that my problem was due to multiple leaks in the crankcase and crank seals.

That's why I said to use a pop off tester..... I have run multiple spring and N&S combos that come nowhere close to what they should according to the Mikuni chart. I have put new arms into two carbs side by side with the same spring and seat combo and one carb will read 35 while the other reads 45 using a tester....

Also, I won't say not to do a leakdown test... Knowing your cases aren't leaking is always a good thing.

Edit: It annoys the crap out of (knowledgeable) people on this board when they give sound advice on what and how to check... and then the poster asking for help says "I didn't try what you said but I know it's not the problem".
 
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dragginblazer

Do Good Jetski Crew
Is there a leakdown test kit available for purchase or is it one of those diy tools? I think our little riding crew would benefit from this with as many old skis as we have.

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smoofers

Rockin' the SQUARE!!!!
Site Supporter
Location
Granbury, TX
Is there a leakdown test kit available for purchase or is it one of those diy tools? I think our little riding crew would benefit from this with as many old skis as we have.

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Call Randy at Watcon. He sells a gauge and can sell you cut out rubber pieces to fit your specific motor.
 

swapmeet

Brotastic
Location
Arlington TX
I pressure tested my engine once before during this ordeal. It held ~12PSI for 15 min. I don't remember the exact PSI or the time but it held.
Should I test it again you think?
 

smoofers

Rockin' the SQUARE!!!!
Site Supporter
Location
Granbury, TX
I pressure tested my engine once before during this ordeal. It held ~12PSI for 15 min. I don't remember the exact PSI or the time but it held.
Should I test it again you think?

If it held that pressure for that amount of time you should be good.

But I would suggest you pull off your carb and check what psi it pops off at...
 

swapmeet

Brotastic
Location
Arlington TX
Ok, working on the ski right this second.
My current pop off is 30psi.
I have a gold 115g spring and a 2.0 needle and seat.

I'm going to give the 65g shiny silver spring a shot. With a very slight tweak of the arm, I get 18psi. PSI, do ya'll think that's low enough? Or too low?

I'll try it out Sunday most likely. I'll take the black 80g spring and my pop off tester also, in case it seems too low. Also I assume I will probably need to tighten the low speed screw since I have lower pop off pressure.

Dale said he put a 125 pilot jet in it. I don't remember this second what the main is, 150-ish I think.

Oh yeah, just for Tom, I made a video of my pop off tester.

http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d158/StyleWagons/Jetski/?action=view&current=0a25190a.mp4

 
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smoofers

Rockin' the SQUARE!!!!
Site Supporter
Location
Granbury, TX
Nice job. 18 might be too big of a drop.... try the 80g spring and see if you can get ~25ish. That way you aren't changing so drastically that you create new problems.
 

swapmeet

Brotastic
Location
Arlington TX
Rode it Sunday with 18psi pop off, dialed down the lss, zero effect on the bog.
FWIW, When I first start it up, and pull away from the shore it feels pretty good (I almost think the last adjustment fixed the issue). As I ride it feels worse. As I type this I realize that sounds like a exhaust leak. Hmm...

Getting impeller this week but won't be able to test until after labor day. One minute I think its the carb, the next I think the impeller theory adds up.

I
 

swapmeet

Brotastic
Location
Arlington TX
Yes sir, I appreciate you asking.

Thanks again to everyone who's chimed in, even the often sarcastic Tom21... :)

I recieved my impeller today, Woudla been awesome if I had it Friday, we'd know if Dales ideas were correct.
 

tom21

havin fun
Location
clearwater FL
Ok, working on the ski right this second.
My current pop off is 30psi.
I have a gold 115g spring and a 2.0 needle and seat.

I'm going to give the 65g shiny silver spring a shot. With a very slight tweak of the arm, I get 18psi. PSI, do ya'll think that's low enough? Or too low?

I'll try it out Sunday most likely. I'll take the black 80g spring and my pop off tester also, in case it seems too low. Also I assume I will probably need to tighten the low speed screw since I have lower pop off pressure.

Dale said he put a 125 pilot jet in it. I don't remember this second what the main is, 150-ish I think.

Oh yeah, just for Tom, I made a video of my pop off tester.

http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d158/StyleWagons/Jetski/?action=view¤t=0a25190a.mp4


I think you misunderstood my intended sarcasm was self directed. the egg would be on MY face when I am wrong lol. but I did get you to prove that you are using a popoff gauge and not just reading what the pop should be from a book. I have tried to help people before and they are just feeding me info instead of facts they have verified. you just verified.

am I wrong in that you have pulled your extended pump and put in your friends stock setback pump? I thought that is what I read or at least that is how I took it. if so then havent you proved the setback is not it? and the 12/17 is perfect if not close enough for your ski.

so that brings us back to the carb. why are you tuning the bottom jets when the bog is not at idle? you cant transition into the mid and top cause its too fat. I know those jets are what is normally run but you are relying on what is "normal" and not what the ski is telling you.

no sarcasm intended, Im trying to help you. I could be wrong. I probably am, but at least you will be thorough in your carb tuning and know for a fact its not it. and I understand the frustration of trying so many things and not getting anywhere. you are right I dont know all that you have tried but I know what I saw on the video and if it was my ski I would be idling it around with a fresh set of plugs for 5-10 minutes and then see what they look like. then adjust the low jet to get it correct. then you need to try to ride it 3/4 throttle for the same time, most likely less as it will be pretty obvious what is happening when you look at the plugs.

start with the pilot first as it contributes to the high speed circuit. high speed jet has no effect on pilot jetting. but if you have slightly too rich of a pilot and slightly too high a main- big bog.

again, I am not trying to be pushy and know it all, just trying to help. (so F U lol) that is a joke. cheer up you will get it.
 

swapmeet

Brotastic
Location
Arlington TX
I think you misunderstood my intended sarcasm was self directed. the egg would be on MY face when I am wrong lol. but I did get you to prove that you are using a popoff gauge and not just reading what the pop should be from a book. I have tried to help people before and they are just feeding me info instead of facts they have verified. you just verified.

am I wrong in that you have pulled your extended pump and put in your friends stock setback pump? I thought that is what I read or at least that is how I took it. if so then havent you proved the setback is not it? and the 12/17 is perfect if not close enough for your ski.

Your understanding is close to correct. Because Brett set up the ski for a set back mag pump, it fits neither a standard driveshaft or a B1 driveshaft with the extra wear ring (poor mans setback for anyone reading this for the first time.)
I didn't want to cut up my buddy's drive shaft, so I trimmed down a spare I had that was already chopped up a little, I hacked it worse but got it to work. (I don't reccomend extending splines on a driveshaft by hand to anyone, altough i've done it twice.)
His factory aluminum 650 SJ impeller was beat to piss, so I decided to install my hack shaft with the 12/17 swirl impeller and reassemble my pump minus the extra wear ring. Thus I had a normal, non setback pump, albeit at touch closer to the intake than stock (3/4" or so). Nothing changed. I believe there are videos of it doing the same bog/ hesitation on here somewhere. I can't rememeber.
I was curious to try his impeller, but I didn't want to break down two pumps just to put his beat up impeller on my ski.

so that brings us back to the carb. why are you tuning the bottom jets when the bog is not at idle? you cant transition into the mid and top cause its too fat. I know those jets are what is normally run but you are relying on what is "normal" and not what the ski is telling you.

When I first cracked this carb open (engine built by GroupK, but running on a FX1 pump) it had a 130 pilot, 150 or 152 Main (I think) 1.5 N/S.
Starting at 130 and going down, i've tried everything down to a 112. Each time following the Carb tuning proceedures Harry and Watcon suggest in their tuning guides, turning down the LSS until it falls on its face then turning it back 1/4-1/2 turn to be just right. Throughout all of that I was unable to resolve the bog.
I also tried a 2.0 N/S, dropping the pop off from 32, to 24, and currently to 18psi. No change.


no sarcasm intended, Im trying to help you. I could be wrong. I probably am, but at least you will be thorough in your carb tuning and know for a fact its not it. and I understand the frustration of trying so many things and not getting anywhere. you are right I dont know all that you have tried but I know what I saw on the video and if it was my ski I would be idling it around with a fresh set of plugs for 5-10 minutes and then see what they look like. then adjust the low jet to get it correct. then you need to try to ride it 3/4 throttle for the same time, most likely less as it will be pretty obvious what is happening when you look at the plugs.

I haven't done this with the plugs... would the tuning guides mentioned above serve the same purpose or do you subscribe more to 'reading plugs'?


start with the pilot first as it contributes to the high speed circuit. high speed jet has no effect on pilot jetting. but if you have slightly too rich of a pilot and slightly too high a main- big bog.

again, I am not trying to be pushy and know it all, just trying to help. (so F U lol) that is a joke. cheer up you will get it.

Thanks, I went back and read what you wrote and I probably over reacted a little. Seems like you disagree with my proceedures/ findings/ ideas a lot in other posts so I snapped in this one. I'm just ready to get this b!tch running right so I can do some 'cool tricks cool tricks!'
 
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tom21

havin fun
Location
clearwater FL
what???!!! I like a lot of the stuff you have done, I think the only thing I wasnt really in love with was the hood lip mod. I like your low budget, very hands on, I can do it myself style!!! Im with you man.

so basically if dale was saying the pump was overstuffing and holding you back and you changed it to near stock 144 setup then does that mean its not the setback pump? thats the way im thinking.

you keep talking about the pilot jet. eff that pilot jet!!! the ski is revving up in the pilot jets range just fine. its the mid and top that you are falling onto the hood correct? (not being a smartass just confirming so I know we understand one another) that is the main jet. have you changed that at all?

I am a simple bass tard. I have tried the mikuni and watcon procedure and never really had much luck. I can ride a ski and not tell if its lean or rich, I just know its not working. look at the plugs. white is lean, wet and black is rich. when you start changing the jets and its having an effect on the plug color you def know its having an effect. you may only start to be seeing a change in performance.

these are some simple things I try to keep in mind when working on carbs
going up in size with the seat makes it richer
or going down with springs makes it richer.
going up with pilot jet makes the idle richer. it also adds fuel to the main jet. so lets say you had the main set perfectly and upped the pilot, you just richened the main also. the main does not effect the pilot.
upping the main makes the mid and top richer.

think of it as 2 seperate carbs, a low speed and high speed. tune the low speed by idling around and checking the plugs
check the main only after the idle is good. tune main jet by running 3/4 throttle and killing the engine at speed. do not let it idle or you will pollute your plug reading. you will also need to run the ski for decent amount of time to get the reading on the plug. scary thing there is if its lean you run the risk of engine damage if its too lean. better to start fat and work down jet sizes

so you ran the gambit with pilot jets but if the main is too fat that wont make a lick of difference. now you just lowered the popoff- so you made it fatter. you did have a higher popoff before but if the main was too fat it may not have been enough.

so do you see any chance that dropping the main could help? I am not aware of you saying you played with that.

I may not have the best or most effective carb tuning approach but I have an easier time reading a plug than I do trying to tune by feel.

now you see why I said to call me? LOL
 

tom21

havin fun
Location
clearwater FL
one more thing, the screws are for fine tuning. they wont make any difference if the jetting is too far off. set the low at 1 1/2 and the high at 1 or 1 1/4 and work with the jets until you think you have it right then you can finish with the screws. but only after both jets are correct. and you wont have to adjust them a whole lot.

sorry for being lazy and not rereading but it could also be bad wires or loose plug ends. and I have to ask in case its just that easy, but you do have the correct plugs and they are gapped and if they have screw on tops they are tight? just checkin, those are easy and it wouldnt be the first time its got somebody.
 

swapmeet

Brotastic
Location
Arlington TX
I'm using a set of barely used factory plug wires/coil currently. Came off a good working ski.

The plugs are new, I was always under the impression the gap they came with was correct.
Screws tops are tight.
 
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