Waterdawg...open Bash Session!!!!

[sjetrider]

Molds are usually splashed off another boat that has been modified to the dimensions that you wish to achieve, the boat it is splashed off of is called a plug.Splashing is basically just applying mold release to the plug and laying fiberglass up on the plug to a thickness adequate to support itself and be stable enough to produce parts from.Your bigger molds usually incorperate a steel framework to keep the mold stiff. It is time consuming and it does take a lot of materials to make a mold but it is not really all that difficult.If you can wax a car mix chemicals together,spray paint with an air sprayer and hold a paintbrush you too can create a mold of your very own.

Holly shiot bro, are you serious? You think that the above is all it takes to make an aftermarket hull, LOL and your in this business WTF. Have you seen a REV hull bro? Maybe you should take a look at WDK's work before posting your EXPERT opinions. GEEEZ Jeff's stuff is no where near a splash of a FREAK'N YAMI or Kawi. Maybe the rest are but his ARE Definateley NOT. It took years to create the REV hull and even more to creat multiple bottoms that fit it WTF??????? Maybe you should take Jeff up on the offer to come see his shop work for a week.

That post was simply thoughtless and worthless.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

I also worked at a custom cabinet shop so I know of what you speak.The last thing the owner did before I left was install a cnc point to point router-boring machine.You still had to cut the cabinet sides to the correct dimensions but the cnc machine did everything else,it routed for the cabinet backs,drilled the holes for the hinges and the shelf supports as well as drilling all the holes for the dowel pins and any face frame materials that you were applying.With this machine one man could build a whole set of cabinets by himself in a days time.I t was a very impressive piece of work to say the least.

 

[SuperJETT]

Holly shiot bro, are you serious? You think that the above is all it takes to make an aftermarket hull, LOL and your in this business WTF. Have you seen a REV hull bro? Maybe you should take a look at WDK's work before posting your EXPERT opinions. GEEEZ Jeff's stuff is no where near a splash of a FREAK'N YAMI or Kawi. Maybe the rest are but his ARE Definateley NOT. It took years to create the REV hull and even more to creat multiple bottoms that fit it WTF??????? Maybe you should take Jeff up on the offer to come see his shop work for a week.

That post was simply thoughtless and worthless.

Don't get so defensive, I don't think he's talking specifically about Jeff, he's talking about how to build a mold. There is a lot to it, but it's not rocket science. Tons of people have build their own hulls by splashing. The next step is you make a change to the plug with what you want then make a new mold.

Also, building a one-time use mold is way different than a production mold.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

Holly shiot bro, are you serious? You think that the above is all it takes to make an aftermarket hull, LOL and your in this business WTF. Have you seen a REV hull bro? Maybe you should take a look at WDK's work before posting your EXPERT opinions. GEEEZ Jeff's stuff is no where near a splash of a FREAK'N YAMI or Kawi. Maybe the rest are but his ARE Definateley NOT. It took years to create the REV hull and even more to creat multiple bottoms that fit it WTF??????? Maybe you should take Jeff up on the offer to come see his shop work for a week.

That post was simply thoughtless and worthless.

Nowhere in that post did I say that his stuff was a splash off of a superjet,kawi or anything else.I am in no way ,shape form or fashion trying to belittle Jeff's efforts.I have seen his hulls,they are nice,I have pubicly admitted on this very thread that he has talent. I will say this It is a mold, it was splashed off of something be it a custom made plug,glued together plywood or whatever,and it is a lot easier to take an existing production hull and cut ,glass,mold and modify it create a plug than it is to make a plug from scratch. That post was neither thoughtless or worthless ,there are people who have no idea what the process of making a mold is all about ,I am not one of those people.That post was made for those peoples benefit.BTW I have been to many different facilities where boats were produced as well as other fiberglass parts,I do know what is involved.Its a nasty,thankless job that these people do but and I am glad they do such a good job of it,but it is not wizadry,rocket science or a black art.That post was meant to gave a layman a very simple overview of the process involved in making a mold.

 

[Idok]

i beieve jeff said it took about 1500 man hours to create the first REV plug

 

[sjetrider]

OK, I will post this up again for the people who have not seen this perspective yet.

Jeff is the Designer, Engineer, MFG. & Sales for WDK. It is not like buying from Blowsion, Hot Products, or many other large companies that farm mfg. out and sell other peoples products. Nor does he market through these people. Your dealing directly with the guy making the parts, he takes your feedback and improves his product and is consantly redesigning and engineering new things as well. It is a choice YOU have to make. Do you want to pick up the phone and take to a salesman that has very little knowledge of the parts and order your stuff off the shelf at a marked up price to pay the DEALERS profits just to get your stuff next week. Or, do you spend more time and effort dealing with a knowledgable builder selling to you at a wholesale price. You decide then live with your decision. I would love to have the best of both worlds, but I chose to struggle through the waiting game that can be frustrating at times but has paid off for me in other ways. I have gained a knowledgable friend and learned alot from Jeff (part of which is to not ever to start an aftermarket jetski parts business) he works 14hrs. a freak'n day and puts out alot of $$$$$ into a high risk business. But he obviously is obsessed with it and finds some satisfaction when his designs and ideas work well. The bottom line is that all the info is here for you to decide so when you do buy from him there are no excuses for complaining when you sometimes have to wait for your parts. Keep in mind that these threads are full of people who have never dealt with Jeff but have input somehow none the less.

I am currently FRUSTRATED as HELL that I do not have parts needed NOW BTW. GGGGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR but I knew this could happen and I ordered them anyway.

 

[sjetrider]

Nowhere in that post did I say that his stuff was a splash off of a superjet,kawi or anything else.I am in no way ,shape form or fashion trying to belittle Jeff's efforts.I have seen his hulls,they are nice,I have pubicly admitted on this very thread that he has talent. I will say this It is a mold, it was splashed off of something be it a custom made plug,glued together plywood or whatever,and it is a lot easier to take an existing production hull and cut ,glass,mold and modify it create a plug than it is to make a plug from scratch. That post was neither thoughtless or worthless ,there are people who have no idea what the process of making a mold is all about ,I am not one of those people.That post was made for those peoples benefit.BTW I have been to many different facilities where boats were produced as well as other fiberglass parts,I do know what is involved.Its a nasty,thankless job that these people do but and I am glad they do such a good job of it,but it is not wizadry,rocket science or a black art.That post was meant to gave a layman a very simple overview of the process involved in making a mold.

Sorry I was reading that post on a WATERDAWG BASH thread so I related it to that subject. My bad. Making a Splashed mold is EASY for anyone with some knowledge of fiberglass, I agree. What I am saying is that WDK took that to a WAY higher level using ONLY the outer demensions of existing parts and changing everything else to make something inovative and different.

 

[wayne]

I also worked at a custom cabinet shop so I know of what you speak.The last thing the owner did before I left was install a cnc point to point router-boring machine.You still had to cut the cabinet sides to the correct dimensions but the cnc machine did everything else,it routed for the cabinet backs,drilled the holes for the hinges and the shelf supports as well as drilling all the holes for the dowel pins and any face frame materials that you were applying.With this machine one man could build a whole set of cabinets by himself in a days time.I t was a very impressive piece of work to say the least.

we had three machines made by blum. they drilled holes for the hinges and shelf pin holes. we mainly did european style cabinets. the speakers had to be cut by hand on a table saw. there was not a short cut for those. they sold for 5000.00 a pair. all the wires inside where gold plated and he used the best speakers on the market. but man did they sound good. i went to the audio store he sold them at and it sounded like the band was playing right in front of you.

 

[wydopen]

we had three machines made by blum. they drilled holes for the hinges and shelf pin holes. we mainly did european style cabinets. the speakers had to be cut by hand on a table saw. there was not a short cut for those. they sold for 5000.00 a pair. all the wires inside where gold plated and he used the best speakers on the market. but man did they sound good. i went to the audio store he sold them at and it sounded like the band was playing right in front of you.

i run a custom commercial cabinet shop too..20 employees..we have it so dialed in all i have to do is look at jetski stuff online all day...but i DO answer the phone..even though most of the time i dont want to...no sometimes i actually have to do work too..what a shame/.:stups:

 

[Idok]

at the daytona ride 06....I broke my brand new WDK nosepiece mounting latch...it was glued on with special epoxy..

I showed it to jeff at the ride.....When he got back to his shop he modified the design so that the bracket is glassed on vs. glued on



seeing firsthand what could happen with PVC exhaust (again, daytona 06) jeff immediatly began using aluminum tubing for the exhaust...


He swore up and down that one had never failed....then one did, and he bettered the design

+1 for that!

 

[sjetrider]

at the daytona ride 06....I broke my brand new WDK nosepiece mounting latch...it was glued on with special epoxy..

I showed it to jeff at the ride.....When he got back to his shop he modified the design so that the bracket is glassed on vs. glued on



seeing firsthand what could happen with PVC exhaust (again, daytona 06) jeff immediatly began using aluminum tubing for the exhaust...


He swore up and down that one had never failed....then one did, and he bettered the design

+1 for that!

Exactly what I am talking about. Now if he can just see 1st hand whats its like to sit on the door step waiting for a package LOL JK.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

Exactly what I am talking about. Now if he can just see 1st hand whats its like to sit on the door step waiting for a package LOL JK.

Just tell him to think back to when he was waiting on those checks to come in a while back.:Banane36:

 

[Mufassa]

Posted on PWCTODAY, Busy making my own hood

Post 1. I just had an intresting chat with my brother in law and he informed me that the Body of the Maclaren F1 car is manufactured in Somerset West in Cape Town, this is where I live!!! :-0

The company that makes it is called Aerodyne Technology and used to be a partner of the Denel Group which was responsible for the development of weapons systems etc and the Blades that are used on attack helicopters which was made out of CF so that is does not shatter when heavy calibre fire hits the rotors. Same concept that is used on the Apache/Strongbow etc,

I knew that the Designer of the Ferrari was South African and comes from Port Elizabeth in the Eastern Cape but not about Mclaren so I'll be taking a drive down there to chat and see if I can someone from the plant to make a CF Hood for the SXR-800. Maybe an after hours project where one of the employees can earn some extra cash. I''ll chat to management and see if they can assist me. Somehow I get the idea if you are laying carbon for a F1 car cash is not going to be issue. I can just imagine the payslips

But I'lll give it a bash and see what happens, I'll be taking my camera down with me so if they allow me to take pics I'll post them.

Post 2. Denel which is the holding groups

www.denel.co.za

technology achievement for the last year

Contracted by BAE Systems/Saab for design, development and supply of helmet tracking system for Eurofighter-Typhoon and export version of Gripen
OTB involvement with NASA's Mars rover mission
Installation of manufacturing cell and start of production of Boeing commercial airplanes detail components for The Boeing Company
Further exports of Ingwe anti-armour missile

Post 3. Okay went and spoke to areodyne today...no camera's allowed in the factory and pre-clearance is needed to acces the production plant. However I had a intresting conversation with a guy called Wessie. They are not intrested in manufacturing any PWC parts for the industry as they frie bigger fish, even if they could manufacture and sell complete carbon fibre hulls for much less than any other manufacturer can supply on the market at the moment. The carbon fibre compistes that they use are pre-impregnated as well and they are kept in the fridge and after laying the CF they are vacuumed in a vacuum "ROOM" and then baked. This kind of layup is apperntly much stronger than hand laying of Carbon Fibre. However not all news was bad news. He spoke to one of his employees who is reposible for laying the pre-impreganted CF and just received a phone call from him. Indications for pricing is much less than what I expected and would be more or less the following after begging and pleading

Mould making, they have a 3D scanner and milling machine that will scan the hood and mill a mould from the existing hood.

Pricing on the Mould, not confimed yet
5 sheets 200g CF = R 2500 = $357.00
Labour = R 1000 = $142.00
Painting of CF Hood = Not confimed yet.

Hoping to get away with less than $650 at the end. He still needs to look at the hood and decide whether 5 sheets of 200G CF is going to be an overkill.

Once the project starts I will keep you updated with costs and pics, wish me luck
Post 3. The hood is ready for scanning, it has a multitude of little nodules on it that was stuck on it by hand. Looks like somebody has polka dotted the entire hood. This is the units that the scanner picks up and then translates to vectors so that the milling machine can create the inner and outer plugs for the mould. Once its in they will start running stress tests with different thicknesses of CF and different layups. This place is amazing. A bunch of propeller heads that turn everything into mathematical results. I showed them some vids of the pro's doing freestyling etc. They have taken the weight of a standard SXR hull, worked out distance, impact and a lot of other factors have now reached a breaking strenght for the Hood, I would have just jumped on a couple of pieces of CF to see how much of a beating it takes. This is getting way to technical for me but I guess I have to trust them, seem they know what they are doing. One of the guys suggested putting in a baffle inside the hood. This will allow air to come in through vent holes but water will not be able to make through the hood into the hull during a sub or nosestab. Water will also immediately be channeled out after the hood comes out from under the water through these vents. Not sure how this is gonna work but if they say it will work I trust them. Wil keep you posted. Initial cost of the project looks like its going to go way past the price of a Hood available from any other company that supplies the, but once the ground work is layed Hoods can be produced in a snap and reduced cost. Will post pics as soon as I get a digital camera... my son broke the LCD on mine

 

[Mufassa]

With reference to the post that if you are able to spray paint you can create moulds from plugs etc. I have been under that impression as well. The fact is that there are individuals out there that can create mould from plugs but they have expierience in die and tool making and some exposure to this industry. These individuals are in the minority. With the access that I've had over the past three days and the processes that has been explained to me I can say with confidence that this is not a hobby project. I'm getting my work done for free excluding materials and the cost will still be above the price of buying a hood from a Blowsion, Waterdawg, or any other CF PWC parts manufacturer. Regarding RD and design, it helps to have someone that are specialised in the production of CF that is specialised such as the parts that are produced by areodyne for the Mclaren. Example for instance is layup for CF is done in 0-1-0-1-1-0 (He explained this to me and get very technical so it's and example), stages and altering the stage produces more flexibilty better strenght, less flexible, more strenght etc. Different combinations of Humidity, heat, pressurisation and curing times in the vacuum oven. (Yes they have a huge oven that vacuums at the same time) produce different results. Now take a company like waterdawg that does not have access to the vast knowledge, experience, resources and tooling equipment that Areodyne has that produces hoods it it's a major achievement. His production plant does not monitor tempratures during layups neither humidity, so if two hoods out of 10 ends up with some minor weak points in the product its due to variables beyond his control, and easy to call his product crap. That's the reason why some buy a hood and it's never cracked and some buy one and it does end up showing stress signs. Pressurise the two mould too much and not enough preg is left inbetween, too little and too much preg etc, etc, etc.

For the first time I saw how a handlepole would be created. Imagine a mould that is a round pipe and a plastic bag that inflates, pre preg cf is rolled around this bag and then inserted into the mould and then pumped up so that it expands, into the oven and you have a solid CF Pole with no joins. Kinda like making a mould from a handelpole as a plug and then reverse moulding it.

I any case, i'm glad I found these fellows. Yes I probabaly could have made my own hood but the strenght and durability would have not been close to any of the other manufacturers hoods due to variables.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

As I said before I have toured several places that make fiberglass components,what I did not say was that I also live about 30 minutes from GKN aerospace in Tallassee Alabama.I dated a woman who worked there for a while and I was able to get a tour of their facility .They deal primarily with prepreg materials also it is an interesting process they go through from removing the prepreg from the freezer to baking it in the autoclave.You are correct the process is precisely controlled and even at that some parts do not meet spec and are trashed.GKN is one of the mfg of parts for the new airbus.I seldom speak on subjects that I do not have some knowledge of.

 

[Mufassa]

Hi Wedo

Nice to chat to someone that has expierenced the process involved in high tech tooling and CF work. What still amazes me is the amount of calculation that goes into the production. They have diffrent Models that are loaded for the same part that can be strecthed and simulated during high impacts and that will tell them how the CF will flex and whether it will withstand impacts at different velocities. They also do layups on the CF and puposely increase flex within a section during impact to absorb energy. Told them that barrel rolls are mainly responsible for cracking hoods. After running a simulation the reason became apparent. Typically CF would be done in this 1-0-1-1-0, I think that's the right one. During the simulation the Hood crossflexes due to the rotation and impact during the barrel. This is more or less how they explained it. This causes a X-Y axis and after this i got lost. It's like tearing a Phone book apperently. Crossflexing produces weak spots, turn twist / impact. Due to the king of layup that is used it actually conteracts the strenght of the CF making it brittle in places... I believe that they now have termed this exersize a show case product. Something they don't make money out of but can put in the display with all the CF Goodies.

 

[WFO Speedracer]

Some of the custom project stuff I build is like that,it is built for no other reason than to show my capabilities.I do a lot of fiberglass - gelcoat repair in my area,when they ask me if I can fix something I usually just give them a peek at some of my project work,or dig out the photos of repairs I have done,they usually don't ask too many more questions after that

 

[SKYWALKER]

Stop playin with yer winky, and get my stuff done butt nugget!!!!!:booty:

:starwars: skywalker

 

[ROTATION]

Still waiting for the rest of my stuff:wizard:

 

[Foximus]

Your 550 pole clip is probably the best thing youve ever made.


Amen.