Freestyle Ada head not sealing

[Seas2699]

Chris, with all due respect, the motor builder is unknown at this point. To build a superbore, is not an easy task.
Im , as you assuming he knows whats up? Thats said, its foolish for any of us to suggest altering port design by changing gasket thickness / port timing as an easy way out. Only novices do that!

To the OP of this thread, I appoligize for the derailment of your thread. I can only hope for the light this has shed to positive information being spread in our community.

The gentleman who will me decking the cylinders for me is someone who has built most if not all of the race bikes in my area. He also built a few of my buddy’s 1200 swapped blasters. He told me about the possibility of either recutting the domes or changing the base plate. I am in no way do this by myself hahaha. I’m assuming the domes already need to be cut in order to get rid of the large amount of base gaskets so this will definitely be on the to do list. Thank you very much for the information and making sure I don’t waste a motor. This thing has been a headache and I’ll keep you guys updated.


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[Seas2699]

Ya know, watching this thread has been fairly entertaining, but really.??.

Pull that darn jug with Head and ex man attachced. Plug all cooling lines but one, spray soapy water everywhere, including the combustion chamber. Put a little compressed air to the open cooling line, and giess what?
You just found your issue, and can acurately remedy it! Jeesh! Keyboard Cowboys!!

if I would have known then it would have been done haha. Hopefully I don’t need to do this again but it’s always good to know the correct way to check thank you.


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[Big Kahuna]

Gonna tell a story about what happens when you give and receive bad advice.

2004 several of us met at this lake in GA. We were camping out for the weekend. We get up there and ride friday afternoon and my SJ is running like crap. Start messing with carb settings...... could get it half way decent. Had been running this same setup for over a year. By Sunday we are all on the beach, and It was still running like poop. So they guy, Lets call him Johnathon. Who has a small business selling and repairing jetski parts ask me what jetting I was running (Ported motor, OEM 38's). 105L 137.5 Highs. "Oh, you are way to high on the lows. You need to go to 80 lows. Your ski will never run right like that......." Well, I said what the hell. I pulled the carbs and swapped out lows. Put ski back in the water and guess what. It ran like a scalded dog.... For about a minute. Then it seized.

So, Here is what I learned from this experience. We both ran oem 38's. He ran a Riva Freeride Dry Pipe, I had a Speedwerx. There are many that ran the same 80/140 like he was running with a RIVA type Port Job. (Very Common back then). The difference was TLR did my porting. Porting was setup for Freestyle. Same guy that use to do Rick Roy's work. With his porting It required more fuel down low than many other port jobs. What worked for John's setup would not work for mine due to the differences in Porting setup. (yes, I adjusted screws to account for the change).

That said, I willingly made the change to different jets based on the advice given by a guy that I thought knew what he was doing. Which he did know, He knew how his setup worked and others that were setup exactly the same. What he did not know is the differences in cylinder setup and how 2 difference setups can have different requirements. I learned a lesson that day.

If your taking advice. Be sure your taking it from someone that KNOW's what they are talking about and if it goes wrong, accept that you willingly followed that advice.

We all try to help out, and give advice. I try to not give advice if I know it is wrong. But I have made mistakes and given bad advice. You can suggest ideas for someone to look at, this is different than saying "Do this, this is your problem, make this change, this is what is wrong".......... When you do this, if you are not there looking at that ski, you may be giving bad advice. It may be correct advice from what the person is telling you, but they may be wrong in what they are saying which can compound the trouble.

What is the worse advice given daily on these sites and on FB?

Answer: "Use this brand of oil".

What is the Best Advice given daily?

Answer: "Contact the builder of that motor and setup!"

 

[SXIPro]

I think part of the problem is that any particular 'symptom' that a jet ski is showing can be caused by a multitude of things. People try to be helpful based on their own experiences. Hell, I was going crazy trying to figure out a fuel delivery issue to the point that I bought a brand spanking new carb, which still didn't fix the problem. Then my neighbor driving by said "I remember when my old Seadoo was acting that way, and it was the fuel selector switch" . I thought he was an ignoramous because he doesn't even know which end of a hammer to hold, but I gave it a shot and guess what...yup the freakin petcock was screwed up. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while I guess.

 

[Quinc]

105L 137.5 Highs.

What is the worse advice given daily on these sites and on FB?

Answer: "Use this brand of oil".

What is the Best Advice given daily?

Answer: "Contact the builder of that motor and setup!"

That is crazy high on the lows. What was your pop off?

Best brand of oil is the cheapest you can find. All tc-w3 is the same.

 

[Big Kahuna]

That is crazy high on the lows. What was your pop off?

Best brand of oil is the cheapest you can find. All tc-w3 is the same.

This was 2004.......... no idea at this point. But this is what worked, And my best friend and race partner had exact same setup when we originally had the cylinders ported only difference he ran a Type 4 Dry Pipe vs my B Pipe. Jetting was the exact same with exception I think his highs were 1 or 2 sizes higher. Todd (TLR) gave us an idea where to start with jetting, his packages were set up based on single carbs setups for freestyle, or with at least 44's or 46's for race setup. He had us in the ball park. 80 lows would not work.

 

[Vortex]

Ok so now that we have all chilled out. What would the technical explanation be for why a slight raise in cyl and port height would damage the motor. Transfers too high? More air trapped under the pistons in the cases? I admit I am not a machinist or a engine theory expert. But I do know Yamahas had design issues with the transfers not being too high in cyl, which is why they are often lowered down by cutting cyl usually at the base. One of my motors is like this.

The common problem in general with forums is that you have a tiny group of very knowledgeable people in two stroke tuning that are aging out without teaching the next generation. IE, it's a dying art.

There are very very few of us who have machine shops, software,etc and the time to have the technical expertise necessary to port a motor properly. The vast majority of us are just enthusiasts who outsource that work to someone reputable. And when those two types butt heads over something the old timers typically don't offer technical explanations just a 'you don't get it' type answer. Which is totally understandable. People tend to get irrational when the heat is on, I have been dealing with that since I was a kid learning how to restore cars back in the early 2000s where crotchedy old shop owner/employees would just lay into you mercilessly, all the while dodging the actual issue/questions being presented.

I hope we can all remain positive and civil here on out.

 

[Harbor]

Yea this thread had gotten a little sideways, but Jr. has respectfully shown in a few other threads what he's been talking about. Like that informative post in that crank seal thread or spark plug reading rich thread.

 

[Vortex]

I've got nothing against him or anyone else I've butted heads with here. And time constraints/etc often factor into offering technical info.

 

[bradjo9]

I’d like to know more about the effects of changing port timing as well, if not here, can you recommend a thread or book or something.


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[Jr.]

Ok so now that we have all chilled out. What would the technical explanation be for why a slight raise in cyl and port height would damage the motor. Transfers too high? More air trapped under the pistons in the cases? I admit I am not a machinist or a engine theory expert. But I do know Yamahas had design issues with the transfers not being too high in cyl, which is why they are often lowered down by cutting cyl usually at the base. One of my motors is like this.

The common problem in general with forums is that you have a tiny group of very knowledgeable people in two stroke tuning that are aging out without teaching the next generation. IE, it's a dying art.

There are very very few of us who have machine shops, software,etc and the time to have the technical expertise necessary to port a motor properly. The vast majority of us are just enthusiasts who outsource that work to someone reputable. And when those two types butt heads over something the old timers typically don't offer technical explanations just a 'you don't get it' type answer. Which is totally understandable. People tend to get irrational when the heat is on, I have been dealing with that since I was a kid learning how to restore cars back in the early 2000s where crotchedy old shop owner/employees would just lay into you mercilessly, all the while dodging the actual issue/questions being presented.

I hope we can all remain positive and civil here on out.

Your statment on the problem with forums is not quite on par. When this forum started, Most of the industry professionals of that time were all contribuiters. All of us offerd sound advise and tried our best to teach the younger
Generation the ropes. That quickly changed. Society in general has lost respect for each other! It became very apparent here. Several of the younger posters, constantly challanged seasoned professionals. Not so much in a technical fashion, but totally off base, disrespectful comments. Little by little, the pro tuners lost respect for the X and stopped posting. Many of these guys were my friends for years. They coundnt understand how the sport could change direction like that!

The butting of heads, as you put it happens when someone like yourself, reads what someone else posts.
Then puts forth that new found knowlage as their own first hand knowlage. Guys like myself can see straight thru that. Espically when you start debating us about the topic. This is why Erik came down on you a couple of weeks ago, and why I did it the other night. If you truely want to lean, and be an active, respected member of these or any boards? You need to come clean.

 

[Jr.]

I’d like to know more about the effects of changing port timing as well, if not here, can you recommend a thread or book or something.


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Hard to know how to start to answer your question other than suggesting you read this book first.
Its the Two Stroke Tuners Handbook by Gordon Jennings

http://www.amrca.com/tech/tuners.pdf

Its mainly about two stroke bike motors, but the principles are all the same.
Once you feel your ready to have a conversation on it? Please start a thread and invite me into it.
Ill be more than happy to contribute

Ski ya, Paul

 

[Iconicsuperpoop]

I just burned a few burgers on the grill, because you ladies stated to git it on, and I got drawn in. Who do I contact for reimbursement? And, BTW, just smash some jb weld and orange rtv on the head. Like, really? It's just a motor.

 

[Vortex]

Your statment on the problem with forums is not quite on par. When this forum started, Most of the industry professionals of that time were all contribuiters. All of us offerd sound advise and tried our best to teach the younger
Generation the ropes. That quickly changed. Society in general has lost respect for each other! It became very apparent here. Several of the younger posters, constantly challanged seasoned professionals. Not so much in a technical fashion, but totally off base, disrespectful comments. Little by little, the pro tuners lost respect for the X and stopped posting. Many of these guys were my friends for years. They coundnt understand how the sport could change direction like that!

The butting of heads, as you put it happens when someone like yourself, reads what someone else posts.
Then puts forth that new found knowlage as their own first hand knowlage. Guys like myself can see straight thru that. Espically when you start debating us about the topic. This is why Erik came down on you a couple of weeks ago, and why I did it the other night. If you truely want to lean, and be an active, respected member of these or any boards? You need to come clean.

To come clean about air filter debate, I actually got a good explanation from someone else who was a much more pleasant individual than Eric.

The smaller air filter will create turbulence in the air entering the carbs which may cause some aderse affects. But in my opinion, a carburetor doesn't know what filter is on it. It works off 2 things, vacuum signal and throttle position. If that smaller filter creates vacuum, the ends probably justify the means. And I have personally experienced a favorable change when switching to smaller filters when using 48s on a 701-735. I

 

[Vortex]

I actually didn't even mean to post that last one as someone called me mid typing.

Anyway I'm scaling back involvement here. It's been fun over the years. Thanks for the opportunity. Sorry to de rail, let's get the post back on track for the o.p.

 

[Jr.]

Do you understand air flow, CFM , and vacume principles?

 

[Vortex]

I have some understanding, no I'm not an engineer. I own a carbureted car and I did tune ups on classic vehicles professionally for a time and I have been fooling with skis for years. You dont want the carb too large for the motor. 48s are too big for a 701-735. On principle yes you should run the larger element. If the smaller filter picks up a few inches of Mercury vacuum signal that is significant.

 

[Jr.]

Ok, Your not far off! To keep it simple, what goes in ? Must go out, and vice versa.
The key is air speed need to be constant. A large carb on a small motor has slow air speed in, and fast out. Makes for good top end but very poor bottom. Fast air in, leads to a very strong bottom. By installing small filters up top, you are cheating the carb signal, and forcing air speed to raise thru the venturi, hoping the motor can react. The statment the carb does not know what is on top is false. The carb signal reacts to the air speed or velisity crossing the venturi / throttle plate to adjust fuel mixture.
So, by running a 48 on a small bore motor , you are giving up a ton of performance.
The idea of putting togeather a recipe of parts to gain overall motor performance is the trick.
There is no one magic part! Its the sum of all parts working togeather that makes the big picture.
This basicly is proving, what the discussion was about. Your solution, while you made it work, was neither a
Good performance option, nor a finacialy feasable one.

One more thing, for the record, im not trying to drive you away from the X. I want you to start to understand you have a lot to learn! In doing so, I would like you to contribute in a positive fashon to the membership.
Give the good advice you are sure of. Hold back what your not.

Ski ya, Paul

 

[bradjo9]

Taking away good info here guys

Numero uno: cross check any advice recieved


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[Iconicsuperpoop]

Good info: Cut an onion in half, brush some olive oil on it, and run it around the grill grates before you cook anything. Feel free to double check that.