DIY Total loss or MSD TL upgrade box 270USD?

[Jcary85]

Disregard ^^ the start stop white wire was crushed in the box and grounding out. That’s what I get for rushing (kinda have to when your MSD system takes a dump and weather is nice)

 

[ngerk]

Unless I’m missing something it’s stator, cdi, coil, or start/stop. Since the zeel works through the test, then it’s either stator or start stop. Since it sparked just fine before you would think the stator is fine. Maybe check the stop switch?

 

[ngerk]

Ahhh you already found it! Haha

 

[Jcary85]

Thanks bud!! Can’t wait to test this thing today. I’m excited to do a true back to back test of MSD TL vs zeel. I’m not sure anyone has done (or at least posted) a direct back to back test

 

[Storbeck]

I'm interested to hear your comparison.

 

[waxhead]

About 5-7 years ago I built a 5mm stroker. Ported etc for a friend, 46 mm mikuni b-pipe etc. I never got to tune it. However I was talking to him about the zeeltronic and got him interested. He pulled the pin and went for it. We put the wax2 curve in it and I rejeted his carbs. It walked my own surf ski so badly even I was shocked. He had eyes like saucers and was so happy. Like he had just had his first female ha ha. The change in the ski was outstanding. We had pulled out an enhancer and lightened flywheel

 

[Jcary85]

EDIT: look to post 970 for an update. I was wrong, zeel makes just as much power.

————————-

So here’s the result: TL;DR;, MSD TL makes more power

Here’s the details: yesterday I was riding just fine with my MSD TL and could easily get multiple flips in a row, 1/4 trim huge flips, etc. lost the magnet in the flywheel (dunno how or why) so had no choice but to switch to my backup ignition (zeel) to get it back on the water today. I ran basically an identical curve to what was on the MSD. Changed nothing else. Ski immediately needed fueling changes. What’s odd is it wanted more fuel down low. It was lean bogging as soon as I went out. Got it dialed in but had to change from 135/125 reverse jetting to 145/115 reverse. The fact that I had to play with fueling at all tells you it does not run the same as MSD.

So, I played with fueling a lot but never got the bottom end snap the MSD had. I also was fighting a bog - seemed fat on the low end and if I brapped it a few times it would clean up. However, if I leaned it out I’d hit the lean bog very quick so it seemed like the motor wanted fuel down low but the zeel couldn’t burn the slightly rich mixture. I could get decent flips and sometimes 2 in a row on perfect setup but it was clearly not as powerful.

Anyway, I feel like I gave it an honest try and didn’t just give up on it without tuning. I’ll be going back to the MSD once I get a new magnet and figure out how to keep the ring gear pins in place. I was reallllly hoping this wasn’t the result. I love the zeel setup and it’s ease of setup and the fact it’s in a sealed factory box.

My setup:
Carbon havoc
ET 1107 - 200 psi domes
Novi 48s
Skat 155 mag
Power factor run dry

 

[OCD Solutions]

Did you check base timing at all?

I’d be curious if the static angle is different and therefore the entire curve is offset by a few degrees.

 

[ngerk]

Were you running a lightened TL flywheel?

 

[Jcary85]

Did you check base timing at all?

I’d be curious if the static angle is different and therefore the entire curve is offset by a few degrees.

I actually was hoping to check it with a light today or tomorrow. Man, if that were the case I’d be very happy!

 

[Jcary85]

Were you running a lightened TL flywheel?

Yes - lightened MSD as well as lightened non charging zeel

 

[OCD Solutions]

Anyone who has ever indexed the stock stator the wrong way can attest to how much of a difference 3 degrees can make.

 

[waxhead]

The fact that it went lean down low tells me that in fact you now have more advance then previously. What pop off were you running on your carbs ??.
Im not discounting your findings but it does different than I have experienced. Then again i dont flat water back-flip. I would think the light weight msd is the key here. A light weight alloy flywheel is still going to be lighter than the lightened stock 760. I am genuinely interested in your findings. we are working on an alloy total loss flywheel system in conjunction with zeeltronic that will go on place of the stock 62t gear. I am making the flywheel and stator and he is supplying the cdi and pickup. This may make the difference.

 

[Jcary85]

The fact that it went lean down low tells me that in fact you now have more advance then previously. What pop off were you running on your carbs ??.
Im not discounting your findings but it does different than I have experienced. Then again i dont flat water back-flip. I would think the light weight msd is the key here. A light weight alloy flywheel is still going to be lighter than the lightened stock 760. I am genuinely interested in your findings. we are working on an alloy total loss flywheel system in conjunction with zeeltronic that will go on place of the stock 62t gear. I am making the flywheel and stator and he is supplying the cdi and pickup. This may make the difference.

I agree, you could be right. I might have been 1 degree light on my static timing on the MSD just being cautious and the lighter MSD FW definitely makes a difference. Pop off is pretty standard around 21psi - 2.5ns/115g combo.

 

[Jcary85]

Really wish using the MSD pickups had been possible - could have tested with the MSD FW also!

 

[waxhead]

Pop sounds on point, I reckon its from the lower spinning weight. My experience is that no one ignition makes more power if the timing curve is the same, unless of course there is not the spark at the plug. Is it possible to see your curve at all ? if you dont want to show it then pm me,

 

[Jcary85]

sure! i'm all about sharing! open source FTW!

I didn't pay much attention to the ramp up - I wonder if I should get it to 33 degrees quicker? come to think of it, whats the idle/just off idle timing on a MSD TL? Maybe thats the whole problem? btw - I lied, I was running 32 max on the MSD and 33 on the zeel just for sh$ts and giggles. timing at 7k is identical to what I had on MSD and the taper off after that is a little less aggressive on the zeel (thats why I like the zeel - more fine grained control)

00:
01: PDCIS-02T <device ver>
02: 00 <boot ver>
03: 20.200409 <software ver>
04: 0000 <data ver>
05: 56 <static angle>
06: 8750 <rev limit>
07: 30 <delay comp>
08: 2 <pulse per rev>
09: 1 <ign setting nr>
0a: 18 18 33 33.0 33.0 11.0 9.0 9 9 9 15 15 <ign angle #1>
0b: 18.0 18.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 11 9.0 9 9 9 15 15 <ign angle #2>
0c: 1000 1500 3000 4500 6000 7000 8750 10500 11000 11500 12000 13000 <ign rev #1>
0d: 1000 1500 3000 4500 6000 7000 8750 10500 11000 11500 12000 13000 <ign rev #2>
0e: 10 10 <nr ign points>
0f: 0 <advance>
10: 0 <ign sw>
11: 2 <trigger mode>
12: 0 <stop sw mode>
13: 1 <latching stop>

 

[Jcary85]

well i'll be dam$ed.- I bet the ramp up had an impact! MSD gets all the timing in by 1500rpm.... my zeel curve has it come in at 3k.

 

[waxhead]

Loving the rev limit haha. stretch those rods,
I just added some one on facebook i hope it was you lol
Im not saying your curve is wrong but I do have one I would love you to try if you want. it carries more up top. Our data logging shows that about 17-18 is the go to make them pull on more. I feel like you are pulling away to much advance and it will flatten then engine out

 

[waxhead]

well i'll be dam$ed.- I bet the ramp up had an impact! MSD gets all the timing in by 1500rpm.... my zeel curve has it come in at 3k.

And your pulling it out a lot harder up top as well.
If i look at the msd its seeing 18 at 7500 which is perfect from what i can tell