DIY Total loss or MSD TL upgrade box 270USD?

[waxhead]

https://www.facebook.com/The-Zeeltronic-Page-104645057965130/?modal=admin_todo_tour

 

[wmazz]

Usually the reason one chooses the +/- option is to use the "-" signal point as the ignition advance while cranking, so you'd want the sensor to first encounter the "lump" at something more than what your max advance will be (in the case of the oem Yamaha setup that's 54 degrees if I recall correctly) and you want the falling edge to be at your cranking/idle advance.

The CDI will use the - signal as the trigger at any rpm below the lowest programmed rpm point in your ignition map, which is usually only when cranking or very low idle. So at low rpms the (+) signal is ignored and the ignition fires immediately when the - signal is detected, there is no calculated delay so the timing of the ignition is very accurate even when the rpm is fluctuating significantly throughout a single revolution while cranking.

I understand this, but I still need a little help to insure that the reluctor
on our custom flywheel is correct.

The standard static angle for a Kawasaki is 56 degrees. We have measured
the stock reluctor (lump) as 42 degree duration. So the reluctor begins at
56 deg BTDC, and ends at 14 deg BTDC, and the only other variable is the
reluctors relationship with the pick-up coil location (which we changed).

One other thing, all the Zeeltronic pictures show the timing is determined
by where the pick-up coil is barely touching, where the reluctor begins. If I
use the center of the pick-up coil, against the edge of the reluctor instead,
it will only change the static angle? (it would make lining up the custom
pick-up coil location with the custom flywheel easier).

Thanks


Bill M.

 

[wmazz]

This picture will make it easier to visualize.

I think that part of the problem is how Borut illustrates the static angle.


Bill M.

 

[beerdart]

 

[beerdart]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10223290837930020

 

[beerdart]

I understand this, but I still need a little help to insure that the reluctor
on our custom flywheel is correct.

The standard static angle for a Kawasaki is 56 degrees. We have measured
the stock reluctor (lump) as 42 degree duration. So the reluctor begins at
56 deg BTDC, and ends at 14 deg BTDC, and the only other variable is the
reluctors relationship with the pick-up coil location (which we changed).

One other thing, all the Zeeltronic pictures show the timing is determined
by where the pick-up coil is barely touching, where the reluctor begins. If I
use the center of the pick-up coil, against the edge of the reluctor instead,
it will only change the static angle? (it would make lining up the custom
pick-up coil location with the custom flywheel easier).

Thanks


Bill M.

Stock Kawasaki 750,800 1100 are 47 degrees static.

 

[beerdart]

Really if you want to be offended about something , Look at that static angle of 24 degrees. That offends me. How is any engine going to make power like that, S/A/M (static angles matter) people. Dont just think about yourself hahaha

Verified 3 ways static angle of the Doo 787 is 24 degrees.

 

[wmazz]

Stock Kawasaki 750,800 1100 are 47 degrees static.

Were you able to confirm that with a timing light? I am concerned,
because my current specs for the reluctor show the possibility that
there is some overlap of the pick-up coil and reluctor.

We are going to try to measure a small pin flywheel's reluctor location
to the pick-up coil, since both engines are apart right now. No way to
use a timing light.

Thank You

Bill M.

I am fairly certain this mock up is correct, If anyone see's a problem
will you please post your concerns.

 

[Storbeck]

It seems like if you're doing anything not standard there is a pretty high probability that you will not be able to get there angle to come out exactly where you want it, but that's no problem just check with a light and adjust the angle in software to match whatever the hardware is doing.

 

[bkspeedwerks]

Were you able to confirm that with a timing light? I am concerned,
because my current specs for the reluctor show the possibility that
there is some overlap of the pick-up coil and reluctor.

We are going to try to measure a small pin flywheel's reluctor location
to the pick-up coil, since both engines are apart right now. No way to
use a timing light.

Thank You

Bill M.

I am fairly certain this mock up is correct, If anyone see's a problem
will you please post your concerns.

i am running 750 zxi electronics and also got 56 degree static verified with timing light. boat runs like an animal

 

[beerdart]

Were you able to confirm that with a timing light? I am concerned,
because my current specs for the reluctor show the possibility that
there is some overlap of the pick-up coil and reluctor.

We are going to try to measure a small pin flywheel's reluctor location
to the pick-up coil, since both engines are apart right now. No way to
use a timing light.

Thank You

Bill M.

I am fairly certain this mock up is correct, If anyone see's a problem
will you please post your concerns.

No you dont check static with a light its a mechanical measurement on the location of the pickup related to TDC

 

[Storbeck]

No you dont check static with a light its a mechanical measurement on the location of the pickup related to TDC

But verifying with a light is probably a good idea. You would put whatever your measured/guessed static angle is in the software and program some convenient straight curve, say straight 15 degrees. Check with a light that you are actually getting 15 degrees, if not adjust static angle in software until you are getting the correct actual angle.

As WMAZZ is pointing out (I think) it's hard to say where exactly the pickup is physically located relative to the flywheel when it triggers the cdi.

I haven't actually tried this myself, has anybody? I'm wondering if there is any issue with using a plain old ordinary automotive timing light. I've heard that they can have issues with cdi ignitions.

 

[bkspeedwerks]

But verifying with a light is probably a good idea. You would put whatever your measured/guessed static angle is in the software and program some convenient straight curve, say straight 15 degrees. Check with a light that you are actually getting 15 degrees, if not adjust static angle in software until you are getting the correct actual angle.

As WMAZZ is pointing out (I think) it's hard to say where exactly the pickup is physically located relative to the flywheel even it triggers the cdi.

I haven't actually tried this myself, had anybody? I'm wondering if there is any issue with using a plain old ordinary automotive timing light. I've heard that they can have issues with cdi ignitions.

that is what i did. i made a fixed timing map and verified/adjusted static timing to that. i have not had any issues with my timing light on 2 strokes. i forget the brand, but it works just fine.

 

[waxhead]

I never actually measure like this. I only use a timing light.

 

[wmazz]

As WMAZZ is pointing out (I think) it's hard to say where exactly the pickup is physically located relative to the flywheel when it triggers the cdi.

Yes!

For example: The 750 small pin, 750/800 big pin, 1100zxi all have different ignition
timing. If the pick-up coil is in the same place, then the flywheels and their reluctors
must be different. At the very least the idle position will be different.

Something that is relatively easy to check with a timing light, is a pita trying to calculate
it with a disassembled engine.

Thanks People!


Bill M.

 

[wmazz]

i am running 750 zxi electronics and also got 56 degree static verified with timing light. boat runs like an animal

We had an expensive Advent in the primary race boat, and it broke 3 times. We
replaced it with the Zeel, and we are very happy with the performance.


Bill M.

 

[Storbeck]

Yes!

For example: The 750 small pin, 750/800 big pin, 1100zxi all have different ignition
timing. If the pick-up coil is in the same place, then the flywheels and their reluctors
must be different. At the very least the idle position will be different.

Something that is relatively easy to check with a timing light, is a pita trying to calculate
it with a disassembled engine.

Thanks People!


Bill M.

I'm not 100% sure I understand what you mean, but different ignition timing doesn't mean the flywheel/trigger are different, the same flywheel and trigger can send their signal to a cdi with a different curve programmed. The cdi just waits a certain time after it gets the trigger signal to fire. That time is what you're programming.

 

[wmazz]

For example: The 750 small pin, 750/800 big pin, 1100zxi all have different ignition timing.

If the pick-up coil is in the same place, then the flywheels and their reluctors must be different.

At the very least the idle position will be different.

sm pin SX 750 is listed as: 13 deg @1250rpm and 16 deg @2500rpm.
big pin SXi 750 is listed as: 13 deg @1250rpm and 20.2 deg @4000rpm.
SXR 800 is listed as: 13deg @1250rpm and 20.2 deg @4000rpm.
ZXi 1100 is listed as: 17 deg @1250rpm and 27 deg @3000rpm.

1). I am assuming that during starting the oem and zeel use the same method
to trigger the spark during cranking and low idle. The ZXi 1100 has a different
a ignition timing than the 750/800 @1250rpm. So I think it is safe to assume the
reluctor ends at a different place for the 750/800(13') vs. 1100zxi(17').

But that difference would not effect the static angle.

2). I am also curious if the 750 SX small pin (with only a 3 deg difference) has a
slightly shorter reluctor than the SXi-Pro/SXR? (the SXi-Pro/SXR list the advance
@4000rpm to be 20.2 degrees).

I suppose all that maters is provides the right ignition timing at peak rpm. But
timing on the SXR @6250 is so low, it still makes me wonder why the reluctor
is so long?


Bill M.

 

[beerdart]

From the Zeel manual

16. MECHANICAL SETTINGS (Static Angle)
Static Angle is ignition advance angle, set with pickup sensor position.
Measure this angle with dial gauge. This measured Static Angle is your maximum advance
angle you can set with PDCIS.


12. Set TRIGGER MODE
Enter Set Ign. menu and move to Trigger Mode with pressing + , or - and then press enter.
Change Trigger Mode with pressing + , or - and then press enter .
Trigger signal from pickup consist of positive and negative pulse. Positive pulse must be first
and is generated by leading edge of trigger bar...negative pulse must be second and is
generated by trailing edge of trigger bar.
If trigger signal is opposite (first negative and second positive), then wires from the pickup
need to be switched...that changes polarity of signal from pickup.
Positive pulse defines static angle position and negative pulse defines idle running timing
position.
When "only [+] signal" is selected, then only positive signal is detected and ignition timing
is calculated for all revs as programmed with ignition map.
6
When "[+] and [-] signal" is selected, then both signals are detected. Revs of first ignition
point define switching point between, programmed ignition map and idle running timing
position.
- Ignition timing is defined with trailing edge of trigger bar, at revs lower then first ignition
point (idle advance...look at drawing above).
- Ignition timing is defined with programmed map, at revs higher then first ignition point.
Example: if first ignition point is programmed at 1500rpm, then below 1500rpm, ignition
timing is defined with trailing edge of trigger bar (idle advance...look at drawing above) and
above 1500rmp, ignition timing is defined by programmed ignition map.
Set "only [+] signal" when using custom, or modified trigger rotor, or upgrade from static
ignition timing CDI.
Set "[+] and [-] signal" when using original trigger rotors, or flywheels. First ignition point
should be programmed somewhere between 1000-2000rpm.

 

[Storbeck]

Ah I see what you mean now. Makes sense.

sm pin SX 750 is listed as: 13 deg @1250rpm and 16 deg @2500rpm.
big pin SXi 750 is listed as: 13 deg @1250rpm and 20.2 deg @4000rpm.
SXR 800 is listed as: 13deg @1250rpm and 20.2 deg @4000rpm.
ZXi 1100 is listed as: 17 deg @1250rpm and 27 deg @3000rpm.

1). I am assuming that during starting the oem and zeel use the same method
to trigger the spark during cranking and low idle. The ZXi 1100 has a different
a ignition timing than the 750/800 @1250rpm. So I think it is safe to assume the
reluctor ends at a different place for the 750/800(13') vs. 1100zxi(17').

But that difference would not effect the static angle.

2). I am also curious if the 750 SX small pin (with only a 3 deg difference) has a
slightly shorter reluctor than the SXi-Pro/SXR? (the SXi-Pro/SXR list the advance
@4000rpm to be 20.2 degrees).

I suppose all that maters is provides the right ignition timing at peak rpm. But
timing on the SXR @6250 is so low, it still makes me wonder why the reluctor
is so long?


Bill M.