DIY Total loss or MSD TL upgrade box 270USD?

[waxhead]

Update:

TL;DR; I was wrong - the Zeel performs just as well or better then the MSD and I’m VERY happy about that!

Details:
I went out last night with a new curve with a bit more total timing (34) and less retard At high RPMs (21 total at 7k). Most importantly, I had total timing come in at 1500 RPM instead of 3000. The ski rips and no more loading up down low. I did have to play with fueling a bit and ended up at 145/110 reverse jetted where previously the MSD setup liked 145/115 (when it was colder) or 135/125 when it got warmer. I think the fueling difference comes from a bit more total timing (why it wants more down low). Now, I don’t understand why it wanted less up top - perhaps because I’m running a bit more timing it’s running more efficiently and needs less fuel? Can’t really figure that one out.

Unfortunately this wasn’t an exact apples to apples test since I’m now running a slightly different curve than I did on MSD, but it tells me I can get the same (actually better) performance with the zeel so I am thrilled. No more magnets flying out, coils breaking, pickups failing, brains dying, etc.

One little side note - I was able to turn my stinger FCV way in because my water box was not getting as hot. I suspect this is because of 10 degrees more timing up top keeping the exhaust cooler. This is great news since the motor really hits hard down low with the stinger dried out a lot. I’ll keep messing with this.

BTW - it was 64 and cloudy with 25mph winds last night, so not ideal conditions but I just had to have an answer to this conundrum. I’m glad I went out!

Wow
brilliant result and write up. As we discussed on the phone, yes you are not heating up the pipe as much with your super retard up top like you had. My thinking is that due to not having the retarded ignition up top you are also not wasting the fuel out the exhaust port and thus you don't need it as much. Thank you so much for writing this. In case people are wondering why the jetting change in the warmer weather its basically Rad ( relative air density) when its warmer there is less oxygen in the air and this effects the amount of fuel you have to put in.

 

[stefan]

EDIT: look to post 970 for an update. I was wrong, zeel makes just as much power.

————————-

So here’s the result: TL;DR;, MSD TL makes more power

Here’s the details: yesterday I was riding just fine with my MSD TL and could easily get multiple flips in a row, 1/4 trim huge flips, etc. lost the magnet in the flywheel (dunno how or why) so had no choice but to switch to my backup ignition (zeel) to get it back on the water today. I ran basically an identical curve to what was on the MSD. Changed nothing else. Ski immediately needed fueling changes. What’s odd is it wanted more fuel down low. It was lean bogging as soon as I went out. Got it dialed in but had to change from 135/125 reverse jetting to 145/115 reverse. The fact that I had to play with fueling at all tells you it does not run the same as MSD.

So, I played with fueling a lot but never got the bottom end snap the MSD had. I also was fighting a bog - seemed fat on the low end and if I brapped it a few times it would clean up. However, if I leaned it out I’d hit the lean bog very quick so it seemed like the motor wanted fuel down low but the zeel couldn’t burn the slightly rich mixture. I could get decent flips and sometimes 2 in a row on perfect setup but it was clearly not as powerful.

Anyway, I feel like I gave it an honest try and didn’t just give up on it without tuning. I’ll be going back to the MSD once I get a new magnet and figure out how to keep the ring gear pins in place. I was reallllly hoping this wasn’t the result. I love the zeel setup and it’s ease of setup and the fact it’s in a sealed factory box.

My setup:
Carbon havoc
ET 1107 - 200 psi domes
Novi 48s
Skat 155 mag
Power factor run dry

what impeller pitch ? If it’s not secret

 

[Jcary85]

8/16 thin blade -3mm cut back no washer. I might try an 11/17 when I have time but I think it’s actually propped pretty perfect at the moment.

 

[stefan]

8/16 thin blade -3mm cut back no washer. I might try an 11/17 when I have time but I think it’s actually propped pretty perfect at the moment.

I am att 12/18 on my 1107 soo Think 11/17 Will not hurt

 

[waxhead]

I was just asked what to tell people when they say the msd is a hotter spark, my response is send me a video of your msd doing this

 

[speedysprocket]

I was just asked what to tell people when they say the msd is a hotter spark, my response is send me a video of your msd doing this

MSD total loss or enhancer...?

 

[Rickjs4l]

Msd all the way.

 

[waxhead]

Msd all the way.

Heaps of cheap second hand ones coming on the market.

 

[waxhead]

Ehancer can not throw much more than stock

 

[robwilliams]

Just wanna add my two cents, I've noticed better starting on low battery/ cranking speed conditions over the msd enhancer/61x or 62t setup. Like getting pounded in the surf upside down under water, i know the motor took a gulp of salt water kinda thing and the zeel fires right up. Love it

 

[waxhead]

Just wanna add my two cents, I've noticed better starting on low battery/ cranking speed conditions over the msd enhancer/61x or 62t setup. Like getting pounded in the surf upside down under water, i know the motor took a gulp of salt water kinda thing and the zeel fires right up. Love it

The reason behind this is the zeeltronic is a dc ignition and pull power straight from the battery. The msd is using the cranking of the engine to develop voltage.

 

[robwilliams]

Yeah I totally understand the electrical difference in operation I was just tryna share that real world difference where Davy Jones might have got me had I been running the old enhancer lol.

 

[waxhead]

Yeah I totally understand the electrical difference in operation I was just tryna share that real world difference where Davy Jones might have got me had I been running the old enhancer lol.

Fair enough, personally I will never g back to an enhancer. I love the feature of the test button the Zeel. If you have no spark then a quick push of the test button tells you if its the coil or the pickup.

 

[robwilliams]

I also been running a bilge switch on my dash as dual purpose. So base ignition map like your wax curve is middle position, can switch to the left and have a bilge on while still on #1 ignition map, or switch to the right for an aggressive flatwater style curve all on the fly. Love it

 

[stacher]

Fair enough, personally I will never g back to an enhancer. I love the feature of the test button the Zeel. If you have no spark then a quick push of the test button tells you if its the coil or the pickup.

I can’t wait to get mine going! Does the motor need to be running to use the test feature?

 

[waxhead]

I can’t wait to get mine going! Does the motor need to be running to use the test feature?

NO in fact i dont think it would be possible. I would not hit the test feature while the plugs are in either. It may make a loud offensive noise when it fires up the mixture in the cylinder. if you are lucky you exhaust port maybe open and the water box will exit stage left taking your ear-drums out in the process. Happy Days

 

[Jr.]

NO in fact i dont think it would be possible. I would not hit the test feature while the plugs are in either. It may make a loud offensive noise when it fires up the mixture in the cylinder. if you are lucky you exhaust port maybe open and the water box will exit stage left taking your ear-drums out in the process. Happy Days

Oh the visual..............

 

[speedysprocket]

I was just asked what to tell people when they say the msd is a hotter spark, my response is send me a video of your msd doing this

My MSD TL also with naked wire.

 

[waxhead]

The typical level of energy required to ignite the mixture in a spark-ignition engine is around 30 mJ.
The zeeltronic puts out " constant spark energy from idle to 12500RPM >55mJ"I
I could not see why you would need more at all.
It does actually look when you go off car ignition that the msd puts out 135mj, I dont know that this is the same for the pwc ignition, I would guess not as it would drain the battery to fast as they are 1.1 amp per 1000 rpm thats up to a 8 amp load on a battery at 7500
However making excess just ends up using the battery up faster. I dont know the draw on the battery for msd but the zeeltronic is 1.2 amps

 

[speedysprocket]

The typical level of energy required to ignite the mixture in a spark-ignition engine is around 30 mJ.
The zeeltronic puts out " constant spark energy from idle to 12500RPM >55mJ"I
I could not see why you would need more at all.
It does actually look when you go off car ignition that the msd puts out 135mj, I dont know that this is the same for the pwc ignition, I would guess not as it would drain the battery to fast as they are 1.1 amp per 1000 rpm thats up to a 8 amp load on a battery at 7500
However making excess just ends up using the battery up faster. I dont know the draw on the battery for msd but the zeeltronic is 1.2 amps

All I know is all that energy actually runs better with a bigger spark gap, >0.050. And that all let’s me run well on the rich side.