OCD Solutions
Original, Clean and Dependable Solutions
- Location
- Rentz, GA
Why don't I ever see dyno's?
- Thread starter bored&stroked
- Start date
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
There been a fair bit of cross data in this thread so I will try to clear some stuff up.
First off TNT does build engines. That is our primary business and always has been, 2 stroke 4 stroke and rotary. We do intricate high level turbo systems as well as headers and exhaust.
We started building pipes because we where not happy with having to design an engine around someone else's pipe that where typically designed for stock engine.
That being said.
When I say a dyno isn't much help to design a wet pipe it's a comment made for the actual tune length of the pipe. There was a comment made about Eddie current dyno with stepped program to simulate load of a ski.
Why does the sweep time of a dyno run need to be 2 second long. Because that's the time it takes for a big cc engine in the boat to run from idle to peak rpm.
When I made the changes to the manifold I used the dyno to see how well those changes to a constant would perform. But when it comes to the tune length of a wet pipe I have not had the dyno be much help.
Example. How many people like the factory b mod chamber??
It makes 4 less horsepower a cross the board to factory limited b pipe ?
So why did so many people use it??
I used The dyno to get a peak length and a min length to the pipe with a constant temp.
Then spent months on the water with many different engine packages cutting and tweaking the head pipe constant and rev cones to come up with the v1. Then made manifold change and started all over again to come up with the v2.
Now let's talk pipe volume. Why is it that a cr500 and a cr125 both come with pipes the same size in diameter?? The only difference is tune length. The answer is larger volume pipes take longer to come up to pressure to become effective. 125 you run wide open so you can wash the slow pipe pressure build to hold it wide open.
But who can ride a light switch cr500 with a power lag and a monster hit??
So pipes are a compromise of tune length and volume for best average power and throttle response.
The RRP Pipe is a copy of the water jacket of the PFP. Which is a dry pipe spec tune length. Which was designed by Randy Looney.
The pipe was so slow to build up pressure on the water on 785 that it was a pooch on the water but a dyno queen from hell.
Baxter added little head pipe length and kept it single plane and put it on a bigger motor and the pressure build time shortened and it became usable with big motor and short prop, but the pipe has no low end and violent hit in the mid and top.
Now we make the pipe even larger volume by removing inner chamber run it as a wet pipe to lengthen the tune of the pipe and increase the stinger diameter to compensate for the pipe being wet and you get a pipe that has no low response 1/16th to 3/8 throttle or more depending on engine size then the pipe fills to operating pressure and simulates a hard hit.
Well the pipe was designed tune length to be dry so now the pipe struggles for rpm and you most commonly see people using heavy reverse jetting to get the exh gasses hot to make the RRP rev.
And others use a Lot of static ignition timing to help bring the lag time down from large volume pipe.
So as you can see all these little variables are extreamly hard to replicate from dyno to water.
You ask 25 people they will all day the RRP PIPE hits really hard off the bottom. Put it on the dyno you will see the RRP pipe has zero bottom end and makes no power till half throttle, giving you that hard punch at 5k ish and everyone says wow great low end.
Now people who spend a lot of time on the water doing real testing will know how to manipulate all these factors and get a good package by testing and tuning.
But here where life gets complicated.
If I use a 125 jet in the manifold on my pipe and run on the dyno the peak pipe temp on a normal 3 second sweep gets up to 230 deg.
That same jet with same water pressure supplied by the pump as the regulator on the dyno the pipe only reaches 115deg.
Why does my engine built so much more pipe temp on the dyno then in the boat with the same pressure regulator as the dyno.
So just that major pipe temp change between the two worlds of dyno and water is enough to say stop, you cannot back flip the dyno so take your development to the water where you can.
Now the final straw.
For engine development the dyno is the tool to use. Because it won't change its peramiters from dyno to water. So if I can control a pipes temp and hold the pipe to the same every time I can now develop the engine to make more power in areas that would be in useful rpm range. Because face it once you hit 7500 rpm it doesn't matter how much power you make the boat has already left the water!!
Now that I have used the dyno to tweak my engine to its full potential and I know what rpm it makes peak Hp I can take it to the water and data log my setup and see how much time I take to reach those peak hp numbers and tune my pipe temp and ignition curve to gain those peak numbers with the least amount of data run lines as possible.
So don't have a misconception on my comment about dyno numbers.
They just are not much help do develop a good wet pipe that changes so drastically from temp to temp.
Keep in mind a dry pipe runs 1050-1300 deg so if the pipe changes temp 50-100 deg that's less then 10% tune length change
But on a wet pipe that runs 250 deg a 100 deg temp change is 80% tune length change not much help!!
Hope that clears things up.
Last thing. Those dyno numbers posted sure look a lot like snowmobile engine type power and nothing like my watercraft engines power curves
First off TNT does build engines. That is our primary business and always has been, 2 stroke 4 stroke and rotary. We do intricate high level turbo systems as well as headers and exhaust.
We started building pipes because we where not happy with having to design an engine around someone else's pipe that where typically designed for stock engine.
That being said.
When I say a dyno isn't much help to design a wet pipe it's a comment made for the actual tune length of the pipe. There was a comment made about Eddie current dyno with stepped program to simulate load of a ski.
Why does the sweep time of a dyno run need to be 2 second long. Because that's the time it takes for a big cc engine in the boat to run from idle to peak rpm.
When I made the changes to the manifold I used the dyno to see how well those changes to a constant would perform. But when it comes to the tune length of a wet pipe I have not had the dyno be much help.
Example. How many people like the factory b mod chamber??
It makes 4 less horsepower a cross the board to factory limited b pipe ?
So why did so many people use it??
I used The dyno to get a peak length and a min length to the pipe with a constant temp.
Then spent months on the water with many different engine packages cutting and tweaking the head pipe constant and rev cones to come up with the v1. Then made manifold change and started all over again to come up with the v2.
Now let's talk pipe volume. Why is it that a cr500 and a cr125 both come with pipes the same size in diameter?? The only difference is tune length. The answer is larger volume pipes take longer to come up to pressure to become effective. 125 you run wide open so you can wash the slow pipe pressure build to hold it wide open.
But who can ride a light switch cr500 with a power lag and a monster hit??
So pipes are a compromise of tune length and volume for best average power and throttle response.
The RRP Pipe is a copy of the water jacket of the PFP. Which is a dry pipe spec tune length. Which was designed by Randy Looney.
The pipe was so slow to build up pressure on the water on 785 that it was a pooch on the water but a dyno queen from hell.
Baxter added little head pipe length and kept it single plane and put it on a bigger motor and the pressure build time shortened and it became usable with big motor and short prop, but the pipe has no low end and violent hit in the mid and top.
Now we make the pipe even larger volume by removing inner chamber run it as a wet pipe to lengthen the tune of the pipe and increase the stinger diameter to compensate for the pipe being wet and you get a pipe that has no low response 1/16th to 3/8 throttle or more depending on engine size then the pipe fills to operating pressure and simulates a hard hit.
Well the pipe was designed tune length to be dry so now the pipe struggles for rpm and you most commonly see people using heavy reverse jetting to get the exh gasses hot to make the RRP rev.
And others use a Lot of static ignition timing to help bring the lag time down from large volume pipe.
So as you can see all these little variables are extreamly hard to replicate from dyno to water.
You ask 25 people they will all day the RRP PIPE hits really hard off the bottom. Put it on the dyno you will see the RRP pipe has zero bottom end and makes no power till half throttle, giving you that hard punch at 5k ish and everyone says wow great low end.
Now people who spend a lot of time on the water doing real testing will know how to manipulate all these factors and get a good package by testing and tuning.
But here where life gets complicated.
If I use a 125 jet in the manifold on my pipe and run on the dyno the peak pipe temp on a normal 3 second sweep gets up to 230 deg.
That same jet with same water pressure supplied by the pump as the regulator on the dyno the pipe only reaches 115deg.
Why does my engine built so much more pipe temp on the dyno then in the boat with the same pressure regulator as the dyno.
So just that major pipe temp change between the two worlds of dyno and water is enough to say stop, you cannot back flip the dyno so take your development to the water where you can.
Now the final straw.
For engine development the dyno is the tool to use. Because it won't change its peramiters from dyno to water. So if I can control a pipes temp and hold the pipe to the same every time I can now develop the engine to make more power in areas that would be in useful rpm range. Because face it once you hit 7500 rpm it doesn't matter how much power you make the boat has already left the water!!
Now that I have used the dyno to tweak my engine to its full potential and I know what rpm it makes peak Hp I can take it to the water and data log my setup and see how much time I take to reach those peak hp numbers and tune my pipe temp and ignition curve to gain those peak numbers with the least amount of data run lines as possible.
So don't have a misconception on my comment about dyno numbers.
They just are not much help do develop a good wet pipe that changes so drastically from temp to temp.
Keep in mind a dry pipe runs 1050-1300 deg so if the pipe changes temp 50-100 deg that's less then 10% tune length change
But on a wet pipe that runs 250 deg a 100 deg temp change is 80% tune length change not much help!!
Hope that clears things up.
Last thing. Those dyno numbers posted sure look a lot like snowmobile engine type power and nothing like my watercraft engines power curves
DAG
Yes, my balls tickled from that landing
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
Tim, that was very well written. I had to reread it 3 times but I think that explication cleared up all the questions I had for how the data can / shoud be effectly used.
Quinc
Buy a Superjet
- Location
- California
Using a dyno to tune and configure the perfect porting/cylinders seems like the only way to properly do it. How do the other guys do it? Grind and pray?
DAG
Yes, my balls tickled from that landing
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
funny because its true
- Location
- outer banks
i have a ET MOTOR and i love it! cost less and turn around was quick as hell!
masterblaster
X-H2
Nice to see the dyno curves posted by Et for his motor choices and chosen bolt on results. ITs rare to talk facts here over opinions. Wet pipes on a dyno would challenge results,but if the pipe temp diff is known from dyno to water,why not just run more water through it with a diff jet and make it closer temp to the desired range while in testing to get a closer result. A dry pipe would seem to be harder to replicate dyno to water tests,because the option to inject more water to match up temps isnt possible
Christian_83
Xscream
- Location
- Denmark
@tntsuperjet are you saying Mark Baxter designed the PFP exhaust system by himself?
To me it looks like he "just" cut up an Type 9 dry pipe and lay it down with a type 8 manifold. (which i guess was designet for a 701?)
Not that PFP isn't a good pipe, i just seems to me, that it was somehow a convenient shortcut.
Here a type 9 pipe and a early PFP
To me it looks like he "just" cut up an Type 9 dry pipe and lay it down with a type 8 manifold. (which i guess was designet for a 701?)
Not that PFP isn't a good pipe, i just seems to me, that it was somehow a convenient shortcut.
Here a type 9 pipe and a early PFP
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
No I said Randy Looney designed the pipe.@tntsuperjet are you saying Mark Baxter designed the PFP exhaust system by himself?
To me it looks like he "just" cut up an Type 9 dry pipe and lay it down with a type 8 manifold. (which i guess was designet for a 701?)
Not that PFP isn't a good pipe, i just seems to me, that it was somehow a convenient shortcut.
Here a type 9 pipe and a early PFP
View attachment 297856View attachment 297855
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
Master you have officially climbed under my skin with your consistent contridictictory or uneducated speculation of true dyno runability issues with wet pipe vs dry pipe dyno vs water results
What is it you don't understand.
Dry pipe, consistent exh has and pipe temps despite dyno sweep times, engine load etc.
wet pipe. Different load wave different exh temp requires more water injected into pipe to maintain same pipe temp, more water means more micro water beads bouncing around in sound wave changes pipe volume and stinger effect.
You really need to spend some money on tools and go do some real testing.
Spend 50-80k on test equipment and go learn some real world testing data so you can truly have a educated knowledge of which you can base your replies on.
You wouldn't aggravate me if you actually had some real world test data and knowledge you spent money and time to obtain data and results, not book worm answers or second hand info with limited first hand knowledge.
Like the pictures u posted of my manifold from Blowsion booth in Daytona. You made comments to it that you have zero first hand knowledge of.
Like you said same manifold machined different.
But the the reality is the core has been changed so the runners are different and there has been other changes.
scottie mac
X-
Popcorn's in the microwave!!!!!
SM
SM
Big Kahuna
Administrator
- Location
- Tuscaloosa, AL
Not going to fit a type 9 under the hood of just about any current AM Hull. It was a starting point. Performance wise the PFP and Type 9 are close.@tntsuperjet are you saying Mark Baxter designed the PFP exhaust system by himself?
To me it looks like he "just" cut up an Type 9 dry pipe and lay it down with a type 8 manifold. (which i guess was designet for a 701?)
Not that PFP isn't a good pipe, i just seems to me, that it was somehow a convenient shortcut.
Here a type 9 pipe and a early PFP
View attachment 297856View attachment 297855
masterblaster
X-H2
you get worked up pretty easy. actually I said your mani "looked" like the same cast,which you are basically saying is true with a change to the core for runner? It must be very minor cause they look almost identical internally as well.RRP was using multi port water injection in their pipe years back,sim to what your now doing with your v2 pro to control temp,"micro water droplets everywhere in pipe" and it performs well controlling temps and sound wave,whats diff where your using it, endlessly adjustable through water for both factors.
There are deff some contradictory statements made in this thread,alot of dyno cant be used for wetpipes cause the sweep is too fast yada yada cant replicate water load,then later dyno stats for rrp wetpipe vs pfp among others. still no comparison numbers from v2 to pfp though,really all anyone ever cared about in the later part of this thread anyway
There are deff some contradictory statements made in this thread,alot of dyno cant be used for wetpipes cause the sweep is too fast yada yada cant replicate water load,then later dyno stats for rrp wetpipe vs pfp among others. still no comparison numbers from v2 to pfp though,really all anyone ever cared about in the later part of this thread anyway
- Location
- Finland
What did they do to get +10HP more. I thought that they would have same amount that older sj has 73HP
Lähetetty minun SM-G388F laitteesta Tapatalkilla
Big Kahuna
Administrator
- Location
- Tuscaloosa, AL
T Cases and Dual Carbs.
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
With you ,I do now get worked up pretty easy, specially after finding out you where standing less then 20 feet away from me on multiple occasions but never once introduced your self. So your a spineless coward afraid of your own doing and you run your mouth on the keyboard like you the man.
But you won't stand face to face with anyone to discuss because you can't google the answer.
You came put your hands on my product and photographed the inside of it and posted it all over as well as sent to ET.
Did you ask?
So basically I have come to the conclusion your comments, like you showed me pic of a hiro setup chamber with multi port water now you see me doing the same thing like you showed me something new and you even commented to that effect.
Go back to 1994 when hiro and Rick where both making nothing and look at our 3 and 4 valve electronic water injection system.
With multiple rpm Controler valves and temp controlled valve.
Then after you lean the true fact.
Tell me one more time who copied who!!
Your facts are jacked and your keyboard has taken your spine and your manhood.
So now I have about as much patients for you as a fly crapping on my food.
masterblaster
X-H2
I was standing right next to you when you were raggin on bolte for running the mod pipe,he mentioned your name afterwards. I came to the lake to hang out for a bit,I knew who would be there. But I dont know you from a hole in the ground. So the cronies didnt tell you I was right there for hours,yea right... I have no pony in the show,I really could care less,I just asked you a few questions you dont wana answer,we can leave it at that. Your super professional no doubt
If you put your product out for display at a public venue,you really gonna cry if photos are taken of them? ask permission? thats ridiculous. I sent nothing to Et, not like he couldnt see them at the same public place anyway.doubt he cares either.
I never said you copied anyone,or I showed you anything,more than a picture of this pipe and asked what your thoughts were on it? I said RRP has done multi point water injection and made crazy power with it,making the point that more water in pipe "micro droplets" to match closer temps water to dyno results shouldnt be impossible,temp,sound wave and what ever other factor you want to blame. youd think we were talking politics or religion,its parts for a toy, chill out and blast away your likey tab,its way more easy....
If you put your product out for display at a public venue,you really gonna cry if photos are taken of them? ask permission? thats ridiculous. I sent nothing to Et, not like he couldnt see them at the same public place anyway.doubt he cares either.
I never said you copied anyone,or I showed you anything,more than a picture of this pipe and asked what your thoughts were on it? I said RRP has done multi point water injection and made crazy power with it,making the point that more water in pipe "micro droplets" to match closer temps water to dyno results shouldnt be impossible,temp,sound wave and what ever other factor you want to blame. youd think we were talking politics or religion,its parts for a toy, chill out and blast away your likey tab,its way more easy....
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
My problem about you posting pics is you posted comments that where not correct.
Did you measure up the manifold to others on the market and base your comments on facts.
Or did you just use your eyecrometer and then comment as to it's design.
Did you measure up the manifold to others on the market and base your comments on facts.
Or did you just use your eyecrometer and then comment as to it's design.
