masterblaster
X-H2
Totally agree.most are not.you are known to be a very competent tuner.
Not sure what a torque curve and useful info has to do with bragging though.
We need more threads like Et has here,it would only promote further sales.
Why don't I ever see dyno's?
- Thread starter bored&stroked
- Start date
Totally agree.most are not.you are known to be a very competent tuner.
Not sure what a torque curve and useful info has to do with bragging though.
We need more threads like Et has here,it would only promote further sales.
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
The reason I say the toque curve is not so important is simple.
Wet pipe!!
Dyno can't sweep through power at 1 second and give good repeatable numbers.
You have to do 2-4 second full sweeps. 1,000 rpm to 7-8k depending on motor.
That 1 extra second of sweep time makes things happen you can never ever get to happen on the water.
Example. How many people swear by the factory mod superjet chamber on small motors??
The mod chamber is 6hp and 14LB TQ DOWN from factory SJ limited pipe.
That's a lot of power to loose according to a Dyno.
And in the racing world the mod chamber dominates the limited chamber on a ported race boat.
Why do so many free ride guys run water in the bottom port of there FP b head pipe.
Dyno shows hugs low end gains in both TQ and Hp.
But almost everyone I talk to has there bottom screw open.
All these reasons are why we have never sold our pro series pipe and it only exists on TNT built and tuned boats.
Wet pipe!!
Dyno can't sweep through power at 1 second and give good repeatable numbers.
You have to do 2-4 second full sweeps. 1,000 rpm to 7-8k depending on motor.
That 1 extra second of sweep time makes things happen you can never ever get to happen on the water.
Example. How many people swear by the factory mod superjet chamber on small motors??
The mod chamber is 6hp and 14LB TQ DOWN from factory SJ limited pipe.
That's a lot of power to loose according to a Dyno.
And in the racing world the mod chamber dominates the limited chamber on a ported race boat.
Why do so many free ride guys run water in the bottom port of there FP b head pipe.
Dyno shows hugs low end gains in both TQ and Hp.
But almost everyone I talk to has there bottom screw open.
All these reasons are why we have never sold our pro series pipe and it only exists on TNT built and tuned boats.
Quinc
Buy a Superjet
- Location
- California
I think most people run the bpipe screws how they are when they get the pipe. Even the instructions say to use the top screw for bottom end.
@masterblaster started a thread here with a ton of info on it.
http://www.x-h2o.com/index.php?thre...p-water-screw-for-best-spray-patterns.133660/
Quinc
Buy a Superjet
- Location
- California
It's already said and done bro! I'll let you know if I hate the way it runs because of the chamber change lol.
masterblaster
X-H2
So you cant see the diff between a mod and lim chamber on your dynos load and calculation chart?
You make a very valid point with some of those statements about fp and popular opinion here."The prob is hype alone" and no dyno facts..people repeating misinformation they have from mixed sources.and zero facts to back it up. To answer why that opinion has happened here... First we know that race boats are ported high,exh duration over 200 with high transfer timing.They want to turn more rpms up top so they run a mod pipe to do so,shorter diffuser pipe,shorter wave return,running them hotter up top does just that = more rpm. most using elec water inj before top screw,that cuts off then opening the bottom screw to obtain high rpms and keep pipe from over heating and crazy compression,pipe pressures and race fuel and tl ign with high timing,to get them hitting hard down low for a sub 800cc race spec motor
Now a freestyle guy gets passed about half this info but remembers someone said a mod pipe hits harder cause its made for more mods,and if you open bottom screw youll get more "hit". Then they try to run a mod chamber with bottom screw open with a msd enhanser,44 carbs,185 psi ada head,"Lightly"ported low duration 701 cylinder,on pump gas cause most dont wana deal with race fuel here. they never know it sucks until they ride a 701 setup right
Et also found a lim chamber made sig more power than the older tnt for freeride aps as well,although it was a replica,guys were talking it up also.
A water injected pipe thats sprayin water constant through 2 jets to control pressure per rpm,in the water is going to spray the same amount of water on the dyno if the pressure is set similar, all freestyle skis rev fast in water dry piped or wet piped,Some are still getting usable dyno info,for engines,parts,pipes. If we had stickied dyno chart,setup threads here that got as much attention as staff infraction threads,that misinformation would go away quickly. unfortunately we just arent there yet...... For now we settle for..hey this rips harder than others...and wonder why so much misinformation still exists
waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
Interesting you say that about the limited pipes.
I have always run them on my race and free ride pipes, much better throttle response down low and higher rpm as well.
I have always run them on my race and free ride pipes, much better throttle response down low and higher rpm as well.
- Location
- California
Its this easy........................
Yamaha 701 motors=80-90hp
Stroker non power valve Yamaha motors =400-600hp
Dasa/all power valve motors =1000-1500hp...........................................................end of story......................who care about dynos...........just ride!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yamaha 701 motors=80-90hp
Stroker non power valve Yamaha motors =400-600hp
Dasa/all power valve motors =1000-1500hp...........................................................end of story......................who care about dynos...........just ride!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
Dont
Center bleed stinger cannot hang Into the chamber at all or it kills power.
The people who purchased the c4 and had good luck know this and fixed it that's why they run good.
On factory pipe Dyno the TNT. Striker, mod, limited and super stock all made a min of 4hp over factory b limited chamber.
But here we go with setup again.
Tnt chamber is designed on B pipe to run reverse cooling.
So you just stated unknown facts MB!
Fact one, you called a copy of something the original name, 2- what was water routing and how much water pressure and flow volume did it have? What was chamber temp? Was the stinger hanging half inch into the body of the pipe like they came?
But when you originally said FFP pipe made more power then mine on a stock or built motor first thing I say is. Wow who ever tested that needs to find my old instructions sheet on how to set up the pipe because it's not even close to my original pipes. And Dyno I was using is the very same Dyno the factory pipe was and super stock chamber was 14 average horse power better and 4 peak.
you even for a second call the replica a TNT pipe. They missed on several dimensions and totally messed up the stinger.
Center bleed stinger cannot hang Into the chamber at all or it kills power.
The people who purchased the c4 and had good luck know this and fixed it that's why they run good.
On factory pipe Dyno the TNT. Striker, mod, limited and super stock all made a min of 4hp over factory b limited chamber.
But here we go with setup again.
Tnt chamber is designed on B pipe to run reverse cooling.
So you just stated unknown facts MB!
Fact one, you called a copy of something the original name, 2- what was water routing and how much water pressure and flow volume did it have? What was chamber temp? Was the stinger hanging half inch into the body of the pipe like they came?
But when you originally said FFP pipe made more power then mine on a stock or built motor first thing I say is. Wow who ever tested that needs to find my old instructions sheet on how to set up the pipe because it's not even close to my original pipes. And Dyno I was using is the very same Dyno the factory pipe was and super stock chamber was 14 average horse power better and 4 peak.
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
Oh MB.
just an FYI. Tall transfer timing means more low and mod power, less top end.
Race motors got rediculous high ports because striker cranks screwed up port heights and a 8mm striker took stock 62t transfers into the 130 deg duration range and to get them to rev people just raised exh to the moon!!
just an FYI. Tall transfer timing means more low and mod power, less top end.
Race motors got rediculous high ports because striker cranks screwed up port heights and a 8mm striker took stock 62t transfers into the 130 deg duration range and to get them to rev people just raised exh to the moon!!
- Location
- Amherst NH
I think most people use the mod chamber cause it fits in the smaller hulls.
masterblaster
X-H2
I'm referring to the replica pipe in the post. perhaps not the best wording while I re-read it but non the less my point was guys talked it up like the replica was also the cats meow. I did read your previous post on the replica issue I doubt all were messed up but would be interesting to know if this one was and what pressure was being testedb.. nice to hear all those dyno hp numbers increase of the old tnt wet pipes on race boats that revved even quicker on race fuel setups.
now how bout the same for the v2 pfp rrp and wdk pipes for the modern era motors. the tuners will fig out how to apply water in real world use with the best one on the dyno to match their riding style. someone will do it eventually....
pretty much any race motor worth a darn was 5 to 8 mill so all had high exh duration. nno need splitting hairs
now how bout the same for the v2 pfp rrp and wdk pipes for the modern era motors. the tuners will fig out how to apply water in real world use with the best one on the dyno to match their riding style. someone will do it eventually....
pretty much any race motor worth a darn was 5 to 8 mill so all had high exh duration. nno need splitting hairs
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tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
MB, there something your not grasping.
There is no possible way to get the same pipe temp times on a Dyno you get in the water.
You can do what ever you want to try but it's a fail no matter what direction you turn.
Even using a engine driven water pump to simulate water coming from the pump.
The problem is load and exhaust temp differences due to sweep times.
Dyno holds the motor down 5 times longer then the pump.
There for the pipe temp increases on the Dyno are considerably greater then what happens in the boat.
You really need to understand that.
What I am saying is how does a RRP pipe sell when it's 18hp down from a power factor on the Dyno.
Because it's only 7hp down on average horse power from 3k to 6850rpm.
And it's average 11hp better from 2000 to 5600
But everyone wants Dyno
There is no possible way to get the same pipe temp times on a Dyno you get in the water.
You can do what ever you want to try but it's a fail no matter what direction you turn.
Even using a engine driven water pump to simulate water coming from the pump.
The problem is load and exhaust temp differences due to sweep times.
Dyno holds the motor down 5 times longer then the pump.
There for the pipe temp increases on the Dyno are considerably greater then what happens in the boat.
You really need to understand that.
What I am saying is how does a RRP pipe sell when it's 18hp down from a power factor on the Dyno.
Because it's only 7hp down on average horse power from 3k to 6850rpm.
And it's average 11hp better from 2000 to 5600
But everyone wants Dyno
DAG
Yes, my balls tickled from that landing
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
The only question I really care to see answered is why do engine and pipe builders use a dyno?
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
I use a Dyno for many things.
One is if I flood the pipe with poop load of water where does it make power, then overheat the pipe as to the point the couple fails and see where it makes power.
This helps me determine where on the pipe to inject water. I also use the Dyno to help develop manifold and where to blend them from 2 to 1. What diameter does the blended area need to be.
I am looking for more then HP & TQ. I am after running conditions how is the motor reacting.
For me we have abandoned the load type Dyno even the Eddie current on watercraft development and gone to an anertia Dyno.
This has become the closest to pump load we can find.
But keep in mind I have 20k in data loggers we use on boats in the water to collect so many different peramiters so we take that data and over lay it to a Dyno run.
Now using the two together has proven to be quite affective for everything but pipe development.
As for developing pipes we build something on paper. Water test it for few days in many different tune types. Water here water there, hot, cold. Let onboard data record the changes for us.
Take that data plot it out and now put on Dyno and look for what is making the boat work how data logger states.
Now having all that data is very useful.
Example. On the Dyno there is very little difference shown between the v2 pipe made from, mild steel, alum, stainless.
Actually the Dyno shows the alum pipe to slightly better.
And that go us excited as alum pipes much easier to make.
But on the water according to data and all test riders the alum pipe was by far the worst pipe after 3-5 min of riding.
Stainless was the best data pipe by Far, according to all data loggers and test riders.
Back to the Dyno to find out why.
After a few months of searching we finally found out why.
(unfortunately that secret stays with me)
So basically Dyno is quite useful.
But without equal or even greater water testing with data logging the Dyno truly is almost useless.
There have been many people bitten by this.
If I had gone by dry pipe testing with water injection on the Dyno I thought we had built the pipe of all pipes. On the Dyno this thing was so promising 20+ LB FT of TQ over power factor at 5200rpm and 9hp better at peak power @ 7020rpm. On the water, biggest POS I ever rode.
Without water it was way to soft. With water it never came to life. With 8 water injection points it started to show signs of life. But the jets where so small it constantly plugged up and still not Even with 3 filters.
So you ended up with a POS Dyno queen.
One is if I flood the pipe with poop load of water where does it make power, then overheat the pipe as to the point the couple fails and see where it makes power.
This helps me determine where on the pipe to inject water. I also use the Dyno to help develop manifold and where to blend them from 2 to 1. What diameter does the blended area need to be.
I am looking for more then HP & TQ. I am after running conditions how is the motor reacting.
For me we have abandoned the load type Dyno even the Eddie current on watercraft development and gone to an anertia Dyno.
This has become the closest to pump load we can find.
But keep in mind I have 20k in data loggers we use on boats in the water to collect so many different peramiters so we take that data and over lay it to a Dyno run.
Now using the two together has proven to be quite affective for everything but pipe development.
As for developing pipes we build something on paper. Water test it for few days in many different tune types. Water here water there, hot, cold. Let onboard data record the changes for us.
Take that data plot it out and now put on Dyno and look for what is making the boat work how data logger states.
Now having all that data is very useful.
Example. On the Dyno there is very little difference shown between the v2 pipe made from, mild steel, alum, stainless.
Actually the Dyno shows the alum pipe to slightly better.
And that go us excited as alum pipes much easier to make.
But on the water according to data and all test riders the alum pipe was by far the worst pipe after 3-5 min of riding.
Stainless was the best data pipe by Far, according to all data loggers and test riders.
Back to the Dyno to find out why.
After a few months of searching we finally found out why.
(unfortunately that secret stays with me)
So basically Dyno is quite useful.
But without equal or even greater water testing with data logging the Dyno truly is almost useless.
There have been many people bitten by this.
If I had gone by dry pipe testing with water injection on the Dyno I thought we had built the pipe of all pipes. On the Dyno this thing was so promising 20+ LB FT of TQ over power factor at 5200rpm and 9hp better at peak power @ 7020rpm. On the water, biggest POS I ever rode.
Without water it was way to soft. With water it never came to life. With 8 water injection points it started to show signs of life. But the jets where so small it constantly plugged up and still not Even with 3 filters.
So you ended up with a POS Dyno queen.
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
Jev, you just described the v2 pipe.
Light, stupid easy to tune.
Works on everything well
Light, stupid easy to tune.
Works on everything well
Vumad
Super Hero, with a cape!
- Location
- St. Pete, FL
He also said cheap. Theres a lot of us who want pipes that are ready to run and cost less than the boat we are putting it on. Not dissing your pipe, but with fpp not producing atm the cheapest pipes available are $800 used.
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
Not for long!!!
The V3 is coming and it has the price point you are looking for
The V3 is coming and it has the price point you are looking for
Vumad
Super Hero, with a cape!
- Location
- St. Pete, FL
What models will it fit? Is it to be a laydown pipe? Direct bolt into a superjet? Wrap around that will fit B1, X2, etc? I have a FPP on my SJ and X2 already. B1 will need something but I'm in no rush.
Trying to slowly move away from worn out used parts purchases, but trying not to give up a machine in the process.