Why don't I ever see dyno's?

[bored&stroked]

Theres a lot of us who want pipes that are ready to run and cost less than the boat we are putting it on. Not dissing your pipe, but with fpp not producing atm the cheapest pipes available are $800 used.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Not for long!!!
The V3 is coming and it has the price point you are looking for

That has me and I'm sure alot of other people very excited.

What got me to start this thread boils down to this: I want something to quanitfy the gains I'll see in whatever product or service I'm buying. I don't want to rely on "hey trust me" or "my buddy says its way better then product X". Even the money back guarantee you offer on your pipe doesn't actually tell me what I'm getting. Hell I haven't ridden enough setups and skis to know if pipe A is better then pipe B and C. If a dyno doesn't work, then I want something else to show the improvment. How long does the motor take to go from idle to redline when propelling the boat in the water? Or a 0-20mph test, top speed test, how high the boat can now be flat water jumped in the air, anything that is repeatable. I highly doubt we will ever get anything like that though.

 

[masterblaster]

[QUOTE="tntsuperjet, post: 1783935,
What I am saying is how does a RRP pipe sell when it's 18hp down from a power factor on the Dyno.
Because it's only 7hp down on average horse power from 3k to 6850rpm.
And it's average 11hp better from 2000 to 5600
But everyone wants Dyno[/QUOTE]
your trying to get us to understand a wet pipe is making a dyno useless then you give us basically a entire chart plot on a rrp wet pipe. fp has posted dyno charts on factoryb vs type 9.
we were talking about dynoing motor setups on dry pipes but as far as wet pipes go everyone is happy to see charts derived from data loggers and dyno together. any thing is better than "it rips better" your post after this one was great. this is what consumers want to see. give us these same stats on the v2 vs the pfp. I don't mind drawing up my own chart plot with it lol

 

[kevbo]

It is very difficult to provide a simple answer to a complex question. Read a couple of twostroke tuning books and try to apply what you learn into effectively turning a water pump. I think you will find high HP setups very challenging to work with.

 

[tntsuperjet]

MB, I have had everything we build copied and produced for sale.
I am not gonna post up the V2 stays until it's paid for itself.
And right now I don't need to spend more money to build stays when most the people who have purchased one pipe have purchased another one with in a week for either there other boat or there friends boat. Or someone rode there boat before and after and that sold it.
I also have found that most the people who have to have so much data to make up there mind.
Are also the ones who have to ask you a million questions on how to make it work.
This is why the V2 pro series is not available to general public.
As it takes a knowledgable tuner to get the performance gains it offers

 

[masterblaster]

I don't blame you on the pro series pipe. But on the v2 posting factual torque and hp gains over the pfp and rrp isn't going to change rather or not someone copies it. Just increase sales. Especially when the 2 new pipes from wdk and et come out with much larger billet and cast manifolds.
This debate reminds me of the sim recent one on rather up front pipe using mani we all have would crush sales of a over the top pipe. We see how that turned out
Just stoked u have a great pipe and others are coming out soon.

 

[Waveblaster785]

I've got a better chance of hitching a ride on the back of a unicorn to sasquatch's house for dinner with the Easter bunny than anyone does of getting that WDK pipe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tntsuperjet]

MB, showing my torque curve and power band makes the pipe quite easy to copy.
Because it's not how much power I make over everyone else it's where I make it and how tunable that power is to make the pipe fit a large variety of combinations.
Some times talking to you leads me to this conclusion. You really don't have much knowledge that is your own. You have a data bank of knowledge you gained from others and very little exp with actually working with that data aka Knowledge. But you seek more useless data to add to your vault.

I am going to ask a few questions and see what answers I get

If I retard the timing what happens to exh gas temp?

If I advance the timing what happens to exh gas temp.

If the engine has 18-35% vs 35%-60% detonation what happens to exh gas temps.

And the big one. What percentage of detonation does detonation become audible to the human ear??

 

[tntsuperjet]

The reason I asked those questions is they will either make a pipe work or not work. Timing is as critical as where and how much water you add to the pipe.

Few pages back someone referenced old two stroke dirt bike. Days. FMF has made 3 pipes for decades for bikes. Fatty,gnarly and SST. LOW MID TOP end pipes, power valve preload springs, power valve govoner spring, head design, exh flange diameters, short silencer, long silencer, large core silencer, soft reeds, med reeds, stiff reeds. Gear position timing curves from 99 up. Programable CDI, PJ, PWK, PWK Air Striker, power jet, electronic power jet carbs. Carbs also started with TPS in late 90's
So they actually have more tuning then we do.
So as you can see from a tuning stand point water craft is still in the 80's

 

[kevbo]

Porting and pipe specs that make skis run good will make a bike hard to ride. Much of the bike work went into increasing breadth more than intensity. Water pumps dont cooperate with high intensity pipes. You will put in a lot of hours trying to get exceptionally high BMEP at 7000 without soft response. Maybe its time for a clutch.

 

[masterblaster]

. You have a data bank of knowledge you gained from others and very little exp with actually working with that data aka Knowledge. But you seek more useless data to add to your vault.

sounds like a direct quote.. was aiming at positive outcome but not surprised. I have mentioned nothing but complements of your v2 I agree data is aka knowledge. data and knowledge comes from talking with others ,books,forums etc. I'm sure all the top tuners have read Jennings and bell,rather than writing their own book. 2 stroke engine physics is not quantum physics. while I've been tuning my own motors for yrs I don't have your level of experience neither have I ever claimed such. but don't tell us a dyno chart for a pipe is useless info request and blame it on copies. kevbno nailed the real reason perfectly in his post I'm sure there are more than a few of us capable of creating custom ign curves based on pipe torque load pump and prop we prefer

retarded timing makes less cylinder pressure in a greater space that is realitive to fuel burn time on flame front. when fuel energy is lost it has to go somewhere. so it goes out the exhaust and finishes burn there increasing egt ... advanced timing does the opposite as most heat stays in top of cylinder

detonation opposing sonic waves destroy the boundary layers that protect those parts and allow them to absorb the heat of endgas that would normally go out the exh thusly lowering egts especially in a free ride pipe that never sees sustained high rpm where det does not have enough time to occur. I realize the challenge in developing a pipe that is non stop being used in the range det occurs. I realize cooling the cylinder. balancing perfect pipe temp with water and pressure and ign timing to pipes torque curve,using leaded fuel,keeping whole header pipe cool using top screw all help reduce det while promoting additional low end torque

audible det from 6k to 8k vibrations would vary from motor type and size. likely not ever heard in our loud 2 stroke sealed engine compartments. must be nice to have data logger to know that value though. just post a dyno chart or torque gain over pfp for the v2 and show us all you are the real supertuner .......please. lol

 

[Little_Franny]

I have to say I really like the technical back and forth, I just wish we could get more threads like this and less drama and bashing type threads.

That being said I understand TNT has intellectual property he does not want to share due to the fact that his competitors could use it against him.

Keep up the good thread

 

[tntsuperjet]

Ok so now that MB has posted all that and saved me crap load of time.
Let's dumb it down to simple Jetski talk.
Retard timing pipe gets hot pipe revs makes crap bottom end.
Advance timing pipe gets cold aka longer and gets much better bottom end.
So take all that MB has in his post and you quickly realize that without given load there is no right or wrong torque curve to a pipe.
It's the right or wrong torque curve for your setup.
The power factor pipe makes good power, and it can rip off the mid and top range like mule all jacked up on Mountain Dew.
But very few have set them up correctly.
There all trying to change the pipe to there setup!!
Couple guys want Dyno charts to prove something that is not provable, Dyno chart of my engine with my tune and the v2 pipe.
Because soon as you put a different timing curve in it my v2 pipe becomes your pipe.
This is one of two reasons I have a stainless wet pipe.
1- makes it the most tunable for the people who buy it.
2- it's very easy to tune.
3- easy to repair if it cracks, and less likely to crack then a dry pipe.

MB, in the future could you please use your words in answering a question and not copy past words from two stroke tuners book.
The way there written very few can truly understand.
A lot of there theory can be what I call dummed down into simple logic that everyone can grasp quite easily.
On the detonation side. The human ear cannot hear detonation until it exceeds 50%. On a two stroke with a trained ear the above average tuner can't hear it till its in the 80% range.
Bearing damage starts in the 30% range.
Pipe tune becomes affected in the 18-20% range.
Every free ride boat I have data logged with under the plug set sensors has exceeded 70% Det on pump gas with 165psi comp or less.
As almost all PV engines have a 13to1 or greater corrected compression ratio with PV CLOSED.
Oh. Piston etching and some putting doesn't become prominent till you exceed the 65% range for long pulls. Aka racing.
So in free ride you won't see any signs of Det on the Pistons and you could be in the 70% range and never know it until you have a rod or piston failure.

 

[keith t]

Love the tech info in this thread, although im going to have to read and re read for it to sink in. Keep it up TNT

 

[kevbo]

Lets recap, engine/pipe builders hate posting dyno results because; big numbers are easy to attain but impossible to apply to a water pump and few consumers are accomplished enough to understand this.

 

[tntsuperjet]

No I just don't post because there never big numbers and everyone says that can't be right.
No one wants to hear there 1200 motor is less then 150hp on my dyno.
My dyno reads low but when I do Acc chart from data logger and input the weight of the boat and rider they are within 6-7hp of one another.

 

[masterblaster]

smh..why does everything have to be dumbed down,not everyone is confused.that was a pretty basic exp of not just what happens to the pipe but why,If i hadnt posted it you would have come behind and said thats to basic but heres why,fairly certain even the most basic end user knows hot pipe makes rpms and cold makes torque.No copy there,if not,they are in the wrong thread.just the basics of what i remember reading in those 2 books that get way more complex than that. Ive been with the best tuners in the country working on aem and haltech ems systems on inducted motors making 1000s of hp, meth injection,nitrous and multitude of other far more complex systems than a 2 stroke motor with basic carbs and expansion chamber. Its pretty easy to pick up the basics of ems,I surly wouldnt want to have to understand it all on those systems but a 2 stroke motor setup like these pails in comparison,it just isnt that difficult as some would have u think here.

As stated before,change hp values to 1 - 10,no one cares. Or just state the amount of power over a pfp at a given rpm .The guys expecting moto gp power to weight ratio hp will get over it when they see these motors and pipes hit the dyno at some point. its just a matter of time really.
Changing the pipe to their setup and load is really the whole point these days,with many diff pump sizes and cc motors sizes,and fully programmable igns. They can pull timing out and change water input at pipes peak pressure areas and get the hit off the bottom they desire and still have it rev out smoother

 

[swapmeet]

I got to page 7 and couldn't tell the difference from page 2. So I apologize if i'm also regurgitating information here.

So the loudest echo in the echo chamber is that Dyno numbers don't matter because what if your pump isn't "tuned"

What about engine builders for race cars? They put motors on engine dynos, that give results at the crank. It provides HP and torque curves and it tells customers what kind of Transmission and gears they need to put in their car to get the best top end/ quarter mile etc.

How is this that different? Even if there is a 15% Disparity because of elevation, humidity, temp... its info. Good info.

Yes real world tuning is how you fine tune EVERYTHING, but I don't get how ya'll can claim that dyno results are irrelevant because the pump set up? Its power and torque curve at the crank. That is useful info.

And the builders could say "We can get you X-Hp and X-Tq at the crank with THIS setup", and they get to choose how elaborate they want to be with the details of the setup. Everyone expects there to be cavets "your results may vary blah blah blah."

I get that water is inconsistent and all this other nonsense. But we have zero information given to us about the power our motors make. And we're spending a HELLUVA lot of money. So its not like I'm going to sue an engine builder because my engine didn't dyno within 1% of what they said it would, but I want to have an idea what i'm getting for my $6000 short block. Or why the $1500 carbs are better than $500 carbs. How much power my motor will make on a Power Factor Pipe vs a Limited Chamber.

There is tangible information that can be gleaned from the crank, how you chose to apply that power via a PUMP is up to you.

This isn't rocket surgery.

 

[tntsuperjet]

Swap what there seems to be a confusion on is the fact that on the dyno the pipes see temps that can never be matched in the water.
Every comparison you guys make is of the same nature.
MB, I have been playing with multi power adders on 4 strokes for a few decades and to be honest got bored.
Look at our quad hillbilly.
YouTube, hillshoot busashee.
And there is a pile of vids on our 4 stroke sleds.
I did thousands of hours on the dyno with them and everything on the dyno came to view in the vehicle. Because the loads where similar in many ways.
Jetski goes through the power and to over rev in the water in less then 1.0 seconds.
You can't simulate that on a load cell dyno. It's two quick. There for it gives you so many variables that you can't reach on the water.
So hypothetically speaking.
Peak two at 5250, peak HP at 6850. Timing at 34 max retards down to 13 above 6k RPM.
Peak hp 115. Peak Tq 90.
EGT1050f.
Pipe ext temp 168 at coupler, 152 deg in dwell 179 deg at rev cone.
Tell me what those numbers will do for you?

 

[WB1994]

Houston , I think we have a communication gap.

 

[masterblaster]

What I am saying is how does a RRP pipe sell when it's 18hp down from a power factor on the Dyno.
Because it's only 7hp down on average horse power from 3k to 6850rpm.
And it's average 11hp better from 2000 to 5600
But everyone wants Dyno

you keep saying you cant get a accurate power chart graph on a wetpipe,then post things like this.No matter rather its dyno or onboard datalogging sensors,as long as same method is used for the other pipe as well? We are more interested in seeing the #s the v2 makes against the pipe above. OR using the above format is fine if you list the same #s for the pfp from the same test method. Peak torque in that rpm range?was this using multi point water injection,with temps like this?