DIY Total loss or MSD TL upgrade box 270USD?

[waxhead]

I can answer here.
I use a dial indicator in the spark plug to measure tdc. I then calculate the degrees of piston movement for 10 degrees and also 20.
From there i rotate the engine until i see the same on the dial indicator and mark a mark on the coupler
So one mark for tdc, ten degrees and twenty degrees.
I then put a 10 degree straight line in the ignition and crank the engine on the starter and using a timing light i check to see where it is.
From there its a simple case of adjusting the static angle until ten degrees in the ignition is 10 degrees on the crank with the timing light.
I then do the same for the 20 degree just to check my work.
From then its a case of running the engine and watching the rpm come up and checking your work. You will find that the a battery driven timing light will not keep up with the high rpm and the ones that are fired of the spark plug only are your only option.
They are not bright but they are cheap. Im looking for deviation in the curve and if i do get it then I put in a correction factor
I have been runing them like this for years. Well to be fair only 5 years on the zeeltronic but I have been doing it like this on other ignitions for the last 10-12 years.

Can you think of a better way and if so please explain it to us, as I am always keen to learn new stuff

 

[Chase Musetti]

Waxhead FTW


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[senor]

Thanks for posting that. So you are using the pto side coupler to mark out your timing marks. I assume your pointer is mounted on a coupler cover bolt. I know it's a lot harder on these reverse flywheel setups to use the front cover. So when your flat curve matches either 10 or 20 you are at 54 degree static ? With motor running above 1500 rpm

 

[waxhead]

yes i mount of a coupler bolt.

 

[senor]

Ok. So you only make those two marks at 10 and 20 ?

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[waxhead]

Yes. Tdc and 10 and 20. I see no need to make anymore

 

[Storbeck]

It's not a lot of difference. Only 10ths in millimeters

Because of the dwell at tdc

One of us, either you or me, does not understand what the static angle is that's programmed into the zeeltronic, because I see no reason why stroke or rod length would have anything to do with it. It's degrees of crankshaft rotation.

If you are trying to measure crankshaft rotation by measuring piston movement, then yes you need to account for stroke and rod length.

 

[Storbeck]

Waxhead, however many motors you've done this with, have you ever had variation in the static angle or they all came out right with the angle and delay that is default for the "wax curve"?

 

[waxhead]

Rod length makes a difference to piston acceleration and thus movement down the bore for a given degrees of rotation .
But just use a calculator like this and your sorted
http://www.torqsoft.net/piston-position.html

 

[waxhead]

Waxhead, however many motors you've done this with, have you ever had variation in the static angle or they all came out right with the angle and delay that is default for the "wax curve"?

All the 760s have come out the same as they would.
But other engines say kawasaki would be different. Every time you set up a different engine you have to go through this process.

 

[senor]

Yes. Tdc and 10 and 20. I see no need to make anymore

Ok here is where i have a problem with your work. You have clearly said you see no need for any marks past the 20 degree mark. You either A don't program any more than 20 degree advance curve or B you don't check your programmed curve after it's entered into the cdi. So you speculate that the program is correct. I'm made these entries before and for whatever reason it didn't take. After several attempts it finally shifted to the programmed curve. It would be stuck in the flat curve .I check the Actual curve after every reprogram. This ensures accuracy. So if you only have a 10 and 20 how accurately can you read the actual timing numbers besides not having anything above 20 to reference ? The coupler is roughly 336.5mm so that's about .934mm per degree. You would really need to at least mark from 15 to 35. So thats about 20 marks at every .943 mm. A lot of tiny marks for sure. Now you are shining the light down the back of the motor looking for those tiny marks to verify. Not an easy task. I do want to make it clear that your curve may be correctly programmed but just want to know why you see no need to verify after a reprogram. You have the knowledge but only did half the work. I will again ask the original question I have : Is the correct static timing on these 760s 56degrees or ? I do not have all the parts in front of me right now otherwise I would check for myself.

 

[waxhead]

If you understood the ignition you would know that its a mathematical calculation on how long before it fires the ignition after it see timing lump. Being a mathematical calculation there is not need to check above that as its already been done. Zeeltronic did this for you. Checking the timing as you talk about with a mark every 1 degree is not practical and neither Is measuring .934mm this is why I use a dial gauge in side the spark plug, Look them up you will find them a very handy device, however checking the timing from the coupler is easy my eyes still work just fine. Mummy lied it didn't send me blind after all, I can only suggest www.specsavers.com if you still have trouble. Trying to prove the ignition every 1 degree is simply folly and just plain stupid.
If you had used the zeeltronic software you would know that this is not an issue as it has a monitor function that tells you what the ignition is firing at if it has not loaded your curve you will know as it will not be showing correctly and of course I out a timing light to check its firing correctly afterwards I didn't think I need to explain this.
Regarding the Static angle I get the feeling by your previous post no matter what I say your going to try and find a way to prove it different and me wrong. So I can only suggest you work it out your self and that way you will be 100% satisfied that your spot on.

 

[Citizen]

Interested in giving this a try, but pretty sure I am too retarded to put it all together right. Anyone willing to put together a plug and play kit?

 

[waxhead]

Interested in giving this a try, but pretty sure I am too retarded to put it all together right. Anyone willing to put together a plug and play kit?

The ignition comes plug and play. Just plug it into the stock 760 wiring plug and add a power wire. I just hooked my straight to the starter solenoid so it always powered up. after a week it still starts and I ride weekly so no issue. Grind the small lump off and you're done. It is easier than fitting a bilge pump it really is.
You can run the same curve that I am running in my ski which comes pre loaded or you can make your own. I could go a lot more aggressive on the curve but the fx1 is off the handle as it is with this setup

 

[waxhead]

Further regarding plug and play I did look at doing a flywheel and a front cover but there is no performance gain in it. Pulling the magnets out of a stock flywheel makes it very light like a total loss flywheel with none of the cracking issues that alloy flywheels are known for. I would look at possibly making a front cover to make it look nice than the stock cover but there is no gain in that other than bling. The awesome thing about this setup is if by any chance the Yamaha electrics give you grief you can go to the local Yamaha store and buy the parts and be back on the water in hours.

 

[Req]

If I were to use the wax curve what sort of domes could I get away with at the 81mm bore on pump gas? I understand that retarding the timing up top allows you go get away with more timing down low, I just want to know where the wall is for domes on the wax curve. WOT runs will be a thing from time to time so I`d rather be safe. Also can 38s be made to run well with this curve or are 44s the carbs I should get?

I have the 760 electronics however have a few projects I need to clear first so it will likely be an off season thing.

Cant wait to do this!

 

[Harbor]

If you understood the ignition you would know that its a mathematical calculation on how long before it fires the ignition after it see timing lump. Being a mathematical calculation there is not need to check above that as its already been done. Zeeltronic did this for you. Checking the timing as you talk about with a mark every 1 degree is not practical and neither Is measuring .934mm this is why I use a dial gauge in side the spark plug, Look them up you will find them a very handy device, however checking the timing from the coupler is easy my eyes still work just fine. Mummy lied it didn't send me blind after all, I can only suggest www.specsavers.com if you still have trouble. Trying to prove the ignition every 1 degree is simply folly and just plain stupid.
If you had used the zeeltronic software you would know that this is not an issue as it has a monitor function that tells you what the ignition is firing at if it has not loaded your curve you will know as it will not be showing correctly and of course I out a timing light to check its firing correctly afterwards I didn't think I need to explain this.
Regarding the Static angle I get the feeling by your previous post no matter what I say your going to try and find a way to prove it different and me wrong. So I can only suggest you work it out your self and that way you will be 100% satisfied that your spot on.

Wax, fwiw, another brand ignition system caused my ski to run like poo. Thankfully with Having full timing marks and a timing light I was able to prove it was the timing. Full marks are good for diagnosis. I did try to map the curve with a light by 100 rpm increments and that was about like you said, futile, but I could see the cranking timing, and watch the timing curve advance and retard and rpm points at which it started its change.

Now I use MSD TL, it has you set static timing by watching the LED turn on, when it first turns on, you read the timing at the timing marks and pointer, that's it, your done. I checked it 3 times and was 32 total each time, 32 is what I wanted. I could have stopped and buttoned it up, but instead, I verify it, I checked the running timing with s light, it read 36 total... not good! The engine cost $6500, to much $$ to leave to chance.

Thanks for all the info, you've helped me a few times fir sure, much appreciated..

 

[waxhead]

I am cranking 195 psi in the fx1 and running on 98 which I believe is a lot like your premium. We use a different rating system in Australia. I think its the same as your 95.
This will run fine on 38s, 44, 46, 48noivs in that order as an upgrade path. it will go better as you go up the carb size
The fx is my practice boat for 550 racing and it loves it life at wot.
I made this curve quite mild so anyone can run it.

 

[waxhead]

Wax, fwiw, another brand ignition system caused my ski to run like poo. Thankfully with Having full timing marks and a timing light I was able to prove it was the timing. Full marks are good for diagnosis. I did try to map the curve with a light by 100 rpm increments and that was about like you said, futile, but I could see the cranking timing, and watch the timing curve advance and retard and rpm points at which it started its change.

Now I use MSD TL, it has you set static timing by watching the LED turn on, when it first turns on, you read the timing at the timing marks and pointer, that's it, your done. I checked it 3 times and was 32 total each time, 32 is what I wanted. I could have stopped and buttoned it up, but instead, I verify it, I checked the running timing with s light, it read 36 total... not good! The engine cost $6500, to much $$ to leave to chance.

Thanks for all the info, you've helped me a few times for sure, much appreciated..

Thanks Harbor, Im with you on that one. I never use the msd led to time my ignition. Always the timing light. LIke you I want to see what the spark plug gets not what the led is telling me. Im glad you brought that up as msd is really bad for this and you are wise to check . When I set up the zeeltronic I will of course put a light on afterwards to check it advances and retards. If you use a battery powered timing light you will find they don't like going above about 4-5k with a wasted spark. the ones that go inline that are cheap will actually go higher in the rpm.

I have done the work on the zeeltronic so you don't have to but there is nothing wrong with checking, No one really checks an msd enhancer when they get it they just believe its right and that's analogue so more likely to have variation than mathematical calculations.

On another note I am not here trying to sell Zeeltronic and im just offering out what I have learned over the 25 years I have been racing stand up jetskis. Do I think its the best ignition out there at the moment, Yes. Do I pay retail for my zeeltronic sadly also yes, If I find a better system that can offer the same as a zeeltronic which is better value for money then I will switch. Cant see it happening anytime soon at the price you pay for a set up brain

 

[senor]

If you understood the ignition you would know that its a mathematical calculation on how long before it fires the ignition after it see timing lump. Being a mathematical calculation there is not need to check above that as its already been done. Zeeltronic did this for you. Checking the timing as you talk about with a mark every 1 degree is not practical and neither Is measuring .934mm this is why I use a dial gauge in side the spark plug, Look them up you will find them a very handy device, however checking the timing from the coupler is easy my eyes still work just fine. Mummy lied it didn't send me blind after all, I can only suggest www.specsavers.com if you still have trouble. Trying to prove the ignition every 1 degree is simply folly and just plain stupid.
If you had used the zeeltronic software you would know that this is not an issue as it has a monitor function that tells you what the ignition is firing at if it has not loaded your curve you will know as it will not be showing correctly and of course I out a timing light to check its firing correctly afterwards I didn't think I need to explain this.
Regarding the Static angle I get the feeling by your previous post no matter what I say your going to try and find a way to prove it different and me wrong. So I can only suggest you work it out your self and that way you will be 100% satisfied that your spot on.

Ok let's stop for a minute. I did not say anything about needing to varify the timing advance every 1 degree. You clearly didn't understand my point. I was referring to the timing marks that were needed to be able to verify the advance curve you programmed. They would replace the timing tape strips or marks like found on most aftermarket flywheels. I'm sure your coupler doesn't have these. That's my point about those marks.Also I never said your program was wrong only pointed out that you didn't verify the actual curve after the program. With a light ,not on the screen. I actually do have experience with these units so don't think you are the only one that knows these. I clearly ruffled your feathers and you jumped too quick to react. I wish you weren't half the world away and we could have this conversation in person. Much easier to communicate face to face. My whole reason behind wanting to know the Real static number is because if it is in fact that high I was going to make a plate for the pickup kinda like the kawi one only retarded to get the static number lower. As per the zeel tech the advance becomes more unstable with the higher static. Or if it was say less than 30 I would make the plate advance the static timing so we can see more than 30 degree advance on our curves. That being said,can you tell me the number you came up with ? And once all my parts show up I will again verify that number for myself be assured. Hopefully our numbers are the same. : ) one last note. The box with the 2 power jet circuits can be used to turn on a ecwi for anyone wanting to use water injection either at the pipe or at the stinger or both at the same time. Good Day Mate