MSD vs Atp flame total loss????

[junkyardj]

how many brains have you got Droc? not in your head i mean JK of course

your a smart kid i dont see how your missing the advantages of a full curve and also keep in mind these things are apple and oranges guys

Dont think im jumping on a wagon here i love MSD and ive been trying to get UK to buy one for about 2-3yrs now but the reliability has scared him off,if you add into account the fact that your not messing with this thing trying to trouble shoot all the time(hopefully) it looks pretty damm tasty imo..

it would be cool to see chris do some real testing on this to compare but even that isnt really perfect when you add into account the differece proper jetting or even gains you get from improper(fatt) jetting off the bottom.. im assuming if i pop this right on my ADA motor that runs perfect witout rejetting it wont be running so perfect (msd straight to flame)

i also ca see how this could be frustraighting to people who make something a little different and it gets shot down without trying it, i guess we should all just copy everything thats already out there and put it out for cheaper and everyone would jump on the wagon (ive seen this more then once here)

 

[QJS]

Interesting reading....I have never done a back to back test with a MSD Total loss, probably never will and if I did I really doubt I would publish the results. We don't make ourselves look good by making others parts look bad, we prefer our parts to stand on their own merits. I would like to make a few points on both Air Time Products and why our ignitions have evolved into what they are now.
As someone pointed out MSD is a large company making many ignitions for many areas in motorsprots, where as we are a small company making parts for Jet skis. We are indeed a British company as someone pointed out , I am all for patriotism but don't assume the rest of the world knows nothing.
Flame evolved into the electric box purely for reliability reasons as we found many people incapable of reliably installing an exposed ignition as they were previously. If people want to criticise us for this that's fine but the reliabilty of these units has justified our actions. Alot of people seem obsessed with big spark energy, big voltage and big coils etc
The current Flame has 3 1/2 times the spark energy of the OEM CDI @7000RPM we have also run Flame with less spark energy and found no power difference but as mentioned earlier it does help with poorly tuned carbs. I do have photos of Flame jumping a 10mm gap on a spark plug but quite honestly photos of sparks are meaningless.
The multiple spark discharge on MSD works up to 3000rpm, I honestly don't know if it makes any difference. I think the point is being missed by some in relation to Flame ignitions, this uses bang up to date technology which offers a lot of advantages over older designs and as yet we have not released it's full potential.
We are constantly developing this product line, one of our future features that is not just a possibilty or dream, but a reality now is for us to be able to offer 3 dimensional curve programming, however we feel at this moment in time it will prove far too complex for most people. Also remember the person responsible for these igntions is a phone call, e-mail, pm and so forth away. You can speak directly to me for tech and help, we are not elusive or difficult to contact or deal with and we could if the need for one arose get a brain to the USA next day.
Chris

 

[NVJAY775]

Well said Chris.

 

[T Curtis]

I cant wait to get my flame, Ive just installed a epic and am completly stoked on the results, And fyi Im using a tbm flywheel. These things work. I let 4 guys ride my ski today and none of them believed me its a stock cylinder, no porting. Ive ran msd several times and yes it works but have had numerous problems.

 

[Waternut]

Well I know some people have had to replace MSD brains. I would like to say that the only problems I've ever had with MSD was the fault of electrical connectors and bad wiring. I've killed one MSD brain and that was my own fault for putting the battery wires on backwards without having a fuse... *Knock on everything wood* I've been using the same USED single channel brain for over 2 years now with soldered and shrink wrapped connections. Most people I've heard speak of the single channel systems say they're more unreliable than the multi channel units. IMO, chock that reliability up to solid wiring and none of that fancy "waterproof" connection BS that is only semi-waterproof for a short time.

 

[Matt_E]

I cant wait to get my flame, Ive just installed a epic and am completly stoked on the results, And fyi Im using a tbm flywheel. These things work. I let 4 guys ride my ski today and none of them believed me its a stock cylinder, no porting. Ive ran msd several times and yes it works but have had numerous problems.

you will like it. I have been running mine in the saltwater numerous times without any issues.

 

[junkyardj]

you will like it. I have been running mine in the saltwater numerous times without any issues.

just wondering if you get the good old famous finger throttle shock you usualyy get from using msd in salt?

 

[Waternut]

just wondering if you get the good old famous finger throttle shock you usualyy get from using msd in salt?

If your wiring sucks, anything will shock you in salt water... You can't blame that on MSD.

 

[D-Roc]

Here is my comment with my example and why I run what I run. I am on my second brain. My first used brain died quickly and my new brain is on its third season without a single problem at all. Silicone spray or white lithium is wrong for stopping current from jumping. dielectric grease. for plug caps, grounds and all connectors. put some over the dip switches, put gobs around the area the wires enter the brain. lots of clean grounds, and a clean install. This is how I have been doing it in fresh water. silicone spray is great for cleaning after a ride and killing salt. I also remove the 10a fuse when charging. I have a working system. I have extra new parts to keep the system going. I can get a brain in my next over city for 650ish if need be. I know of the better ability that the atp has for timing a motor. My motor does fall off in the top end and runs flat but i don't care. I don't use the power that +7000rpms makes. If the atp @ 7000 makes 3.5 more power than stock ignition that is good. If msd makes 3.5 times the power also, then that is good too. atp takes the 3.5 more power into the coil and outputs it to two plugs each time. msd does not divide, and has the spark full power all the time vs at 7000 rpm where i don't use it.
Msd cost more for a TL ignition that comes with more parts and does not use the stock oem coil. I agree that multi spark discharge is no good above a certain rpm. I think really good wires and fresh plugs helps make good spark. oem coils do not have the great wires that msd comes with, and some people don't like JSS. The atp is looks like a great system with it's own unique features. These features as good as they, are not good enough for me to ditch my current msd just to switch to them. I am following the leader on this one. i have never heard anyone say that the msd did not work freaking amazing.....when it was working lol.

I am not against it. It is a good system and the more people buy it the more we will learn about it. We hear more about msd brains going bad because there are alot more out there than atp. Time will tell and great products will speak for themselves.

 

[D-Roc]

just wondering if you get the good old famous finger throttle shock you usualyy get from using msd in salt?

msd has so much power it will do this in fresh water as well.

 

[D-Roc]

To make more hp you must burn more fuel. msd's strong spark allows you to do this. do not confuse this. putting more fuel into your motor that the msd can burn is not making more power because of untuned carbs. it is actually the complete opposite. we run more fuel because we can not because we can't tune a carb. haha.

 

[Breese08SJ]

So is the ATP Flame a single channel or multi channel TL System?

 

[Waternut]

So is the ATP Flame a single channel or multi channel TL System?

Has to be single because a stock coil can't divide the spark and it only comes with a single pickup. I don't really consider single channel a bad thing though. Just fewer things to go wrong.

 

[junkyardj]

If your wiring sucks, anything will shock you in salt water... You can't blame that on MSD.

well Chuck has wiring that sucks !!! you said it!! i guess ill blame XM since everyone is blamming everyone these days or should i blame RRP?

Damm you chucky for my finger shock!!!

 

[D-Roc]

well Chuck has wiring that sucks !!! you said it!! i guess ill blame XM since everyone is blamming everyone these days or should i blame RRP?

Damm you chucky for my finger shock!!!

This happens easier in saltwater but still happens in fresh water when the motor gets wet along with everything else. The shocking can happen on both systems and on msd enhancer/stock systems. you need to use di-electric grease on your spark plugs caps so that the spark power has no where else to go except the electrode. bad wiring from a bilge pump can give finger throttle shocks too i would guess (saltwater) but i am not saltwater expert. the atp setup would appear more saltwater proof with a good sealed e-box. I only rode saltwater for one week in daytona and i dropped the TL and put in the oem box/enhancer before i left from the great north. most of the best surf riders setups didn't have TL at the time so i didn't want to risk my msd tl in the salty surf.

 

[junkyardj]

This happens easier in saltwater but still happens in fresh water when the motor gets wet along with everything else. The shocking can happen on both systems and on msd enhancer/stock systems. you need to use di-electric grease on your spark plugs caps so that the spark power has no where else to go except the electrode. bad wiring from a bilge pump can give finger throttle shocks too i would guess (saltwater) but i am not saltwater expert. the atp setup would appear more saltwater proof with a good sealed e-box. I only rode saltwater for one week in daytona and i dropped the TL and put in the oem box/enhancer before i left from the great north. most of the best surf riders setups didn't have TL at the time so i didn't want to risk my msd tl in the salty surf.

i actually dont get finger shock with my MSD i was simply asking the question because everyone in VB with TL was complaining about the shock and id like to know if the flame does it too

ive never got the shock in fresh or salt water yet maybe its only a X2 problem lol

 

[Aircraftsalz]

No shocks from the Flame, I ran mine for 6 months in 95% saltwater..... Jay that electrical tape on the throttle was for the shock problem on ur ski, lol

Me & Lucas have the same skis, (Hull, motor, pump, carbs, etc) I run the Flame & he has the MSD TL... IMO I think the MSD starts easier, Off the bottom my flame seems to hit harder, Mid to Top the MSD pulls harder (But Lucas's FW is lighter then my Flame FW) so that may help some, starting after a motor swamp MSD fires quicker, both systems work great, Flame gets the vote for simple install & never touch. MSD gets a vote for freshwater only use..

Just remember any TL system is gonna be work!

FYI FW wheel weight, Lucas has a custom MSD FW ...

Stock ATP & Stock MSD TL FW the Flame was a little lighter

 

[junkyardj]

No shocks from the Flame, I ran mine for 6 months in 95% saltwater..... Jay that electrical tape on the throttle was for the shock problem on ur ski, lol

i figured it was that, i guess you have no trust in chuky's crappy wiring then? jk lol

great review by the way, its good to hear from someone who has actual tray time with both not just a hard on for MSD (you know who you are) jk

i guess you cant beat that super hot spark for cleaning up a fat bottom

jyj

 

[D-Roc]

i actually dont get finger shock with my MSD i was simply asking the question because everyone in VB with TL was complaining about the shock and id like to know if the flame does it too

ive never got the shock in fresh or salt water yet maybe its only a X2 problem lol

the shock does not come from bad wiring..... i mean you can get a shock from bad wiring in salt, but the finger zapping gets worse with throttle/rpms. this means the power is jumping from plug wires to the motor and going up the throttle cable. it can happen on any ignition. msd has alot of power so it happens easier. i got a hard on for what is the best.

 

[D-Roc]

No shocks from the Flame, I ran mine for 6 months in 95% saltwater..... Jay that electrical tape on the throttle was for the shock problem on ur ski, lol

i figured it was that, i guess you have no trust in chuky's crappy wiring then? jk lol

great review by the way, its good to hear from someone who has actual tray time with both not just a hard on for MSD (you know who you are) jk

i guess you cant beat that super hot spark for cleaning up a fat bottom

jyj

yeah you are right, you cannot beat the msd super hot spark. do you think that most people run msd with an over rich mixture? you should run msd richer than atp because it can burn more fuel, but if you run either system over rich or lean your just dumb.