MSD vs Atp flame total loss????

[D-Roc]

yes a dry e-box will be key, i always cracked my ebox fuse cap after a ride to get moisture out, if it got in. a little check valve installed at the bottom may be an idea. i looked up and down on the msd brain and there was a little sticker but not a serial number. atp is smart to be able to keep track of this and they must. people will take advantage and i thought about it big time. i just didn't because its not right. i wanted to, but didn't. i had an advent for the kawi that would cut out all the time on my kawi. i tryed a bunch of stuff and never figured it out. I new the next ignition i bought would be the msd. i cheaped out and got a used one and had JSS wire up the system the way i wanted it. the brain died after a month or so. i got a new brain and everything has been 100 percent. no ignition problem since, my kill switch yes, the 3" screw thru my handpole to hold on the chinpad that clipped the stop wires and made the ski run wierd? yes. msd system, no problem. very simple system, very easy to trouble shoot. obviously if a highschool drop out can use it.....
I cannot make the choice for someone else. i can ask questions and make statements true or false against my case. if people have all the info before they make their choice, then they should be happy when they do.

 

[D-Roc]

A little less, actually.

so a coil takes more power and stores it until the ground is removed which triggers the release of slightly less power all at once. okay i think i get it.

 

[D-Roc]

at no point have i said one is better than the other... just so we get that out there

i would not do that as i havent tried both

once i can do both back to back i would give my honest opinion on both

you like msd... we get it

would have expected that you would want to do the comparison yourself

many new TL buyer will have not tried both but must fork over a large amount of money. if you test back to back and report back, it will be your opinion. your opinion is not what should sell the product. it should be the buyers opinion that he has made from all the info on both systems.

 

[Lucaumpits]

I will stick with my MSD , nothing against the Flame,
will replace my MSD whenever I can ride a ski that I fells that hits harder that mine set up, until that I will keep my MSD

 

[Waternut]

After my reads here, if and when I get a tl I will get the flame. As of now I like the convenience of charging and haven't smoked my enhancer yet lol. But I'd like some more braaap too.

On a side note. What kind of run time could I expect with a limited 701 set up? I know there's variables to be considered like batts, bilges etc. Hmm I run dual 500 rules, and will run a power source batt this season (don't know what one yet) So best and worst case what could I expect?

Thanks fellas!

More than anything else, this will depend on your battery and how many times you crank it. I've got a Deka 16AH battery and I can ride it 2-3 days no problem. I run a single 800gph bilge pump 100% of the time. When I say 100% of the time, I mean that I even leave it running for an hour or so when I stop off at a friends house to BS. I forget to turn it back on all the time so I just avoid the problem by leaving it on. I'm generally out on the water for 2-3 hours each day on the weekend and average about 7-8 gallons of fuel burned for the weekend. Figure roughly 10 cranks a day (initial fire out of water, stopping to rest, BSing, etc.) That fuel burn rate was on a single carbed 61x/61x. Unfortunately, my fuel burn will be much higher now with my new motor but oh well... I haven't purposely gone past 3 days of riding so I don't know if it'll last longer or not.

 

[Matt_E]

so a coil takes more power and stores it until the ground is removed which triggers the release of slightly less power all at once. okay i think i get it.

Eh.....not really, but close enough for this discussion.
I don't think there is any doubt that the MSD dual channel has more energy, if only for the dual channel.
For me, the added reliability of the ATP system is more than worth it though. I love being able to just drop it in saltwater without any worries.
I am fully aware that MSD TL would probably make more power. Can't say that I care.
I've burned 2 MSD brains, a coil, and a couple of pickups in the past. My ATP Flame has needed nothing but a sound electrical system.
And it starts every time, salt or not. That's where my feature priorities lie.

 

[D-Roc]

some may say that you don't need a tl in surf but i do know the advantages of timing any motor. the msd is not salt friendly. i knew this before i went to daytona and went with the ol surf setup. this is indeed a salty surf tl system. so if you got a good battery, cables, and starter. the system is beyond reliable. This is working right guys? good sunday read?

 

[masterblaster]

the msd tl costs 1250 new the atp cost 1350,but comes with no coils or wires or dual channel pickups,this was my main issue with it. the msd tl is more of a pita to do in a freeride ski,imho if your going to use it in a ski that is submerged in saltwater it has to be in a good dry box.ill post a link to one i did for fairly inexpensive.

http://www.x-h2o.com/threads/75314-complete-inclosed-msd-total-loss-system-for-salt-water&highlight=


Josh
I dont think the Fw weight is making any diff you could feel with your comparison of 1000 cc plus motors,The dual channel ign is so precise,and the multi sparks below 3000rpm on starts, it starts almost instantly on most any ski.unreal smooth idle and nasty power.I think you are seeing the diff between yours and lucas skis more on the fuel delivery and tune.Both those skis make sick radical power it would be hard to test igns and be able to tell a diff,at some point its just unrecognizable power when something is pulling that hard. Thats the main reason why the day at the lake when all those flat water boats were there and no one could agree on who was making more power.
Its like driving a 1000 hp car and then a 1200 hp car down the track, and trying to pick the faster one,until you see the #s posted on the run,no one would be able to tell. the best test if someone were to take the time to do this would be a lightly moded 700 to 800 cc. back to back in same ski for best response and 60ft times

 

[Watty]

Back to back testing....6mm Jetworks stroker.

The MSD has more throttle response, but only ever so slightly. Both ignitions fire the engine up in the same way, no noticeable difference there.

After about 3000rpm, I couldn't tell any difference at all between the two.

Even though I thought I had the carbs tuned perfectly, I had to lean out the bottom end 1/8th of a turn to get the best results with the Flame.

Both systems were run in 100% salt water, and the ski was regularly sunk, but I never had any problems with either...I just went through a lot more WD40 with the MSD. The Flame was 100% maintenance free.

There's hardly a trade-off running the Flame with such a minimal difference. It's all I will run now.

 

[masterblaster]

Nice comparison watty. I know you have been through a ton of ign systems from what I have read.No question the flame would be less bs to setup and run in salt water for freeride,as long as you have nice new grounds,thats deff the easy way to go.

 

[Big Kahuna]

Stick the MSD Brain inside the OEM Box. Done, it waterproofed now...................... well, until the box leaks.

 

[steve-uk]

you can fit all the msd stuff in the oem box?

ive had the same oem box since 2004 same seal never a drop of moisture in there

 

[D-Roc]

the msd would benifit from a box but being as fussy as it can be at times putting it in a box may make for a bit more work to get at but no more than the atp. you should easily fit the brain, relay and bulk wires in the oem box. keep the coils out and use the msd connects outside the box with dielectric grease. that would be a good idea maybe. you can still crack it open to remove the fuse and dry out.

 

[Watty]

Nice comparison watty. I know you have been through a ton of ign systems from what I have read.No question the flame would be less bs to setup and run in salt water for freeride,as long as you have nice new grounds,thats deff the easy way to go.

Yeah, I think I have tried every ignition on the market (that I'm aware of) at some stage! I should also add that the comparison between the two was done back in 2008/2009. I know the MSD has not changed since then, but the Flame has undergone some substantial changes/improvements, and from what I hear, there's only good things to come.

Putting the brain in the box doesn't really achieve much apart from keeping it dry. Poor running and shorting due to salt water is more likely to affect the coils. I'm pretty anal with setting up the MSD, and although it's nothing over the top, it works well, and there wouldn't be many ski's out there that run total loss that would have seen as much salt water as this ski. I live about 30 seconds from the beach!

 

[D-Roc]

you have to be anal with the msd. no doubt. thanks for the good review.

 

[masterblaster]

The coils from the msd wont even come close to fitting in the oem box and I doubt the brain would either.But it is critical the coils are in the box if you want zero issues and no maintain tasks at the end of every ride. Having the box elims the problems that eat at msd over time in salt water.
Some oem boxes seem to seal good and some dont,the condition of the rubber seal and torque put on all the screws being the same is the issue

 

[steve-uk]

just another comment.. the Flame was designed to work in an ebox and has heat disipation worked into it

could the MSD go in such a small box without having any over heating issues?

 

[D-Roc]

i have never felt mine to be hot too the touch but i am sure it warms up a bit from engine temps. water cooling it down vs not cooling would not be a problem to me. what is the longest someone has been running a msd brain without replacing.

 

[Matt_E]

The coils from the msd wont even come close to fitting in the oem box and I doubt the brain would either.But it is critical the coils are in the box if you want zero issues and no maintain tasks at the end of every ride. Having the box elims the problems that eat at msd over time in salt water.
Some people know how to seal oem boxes and some clearly don't. The cheapness in using a new seal and proper torquing of the screws is the issue

Fixed it for you. :biggrin:

just another comment.. the Flame was designed to work in an ebox and has heat disipation worked into it

could the MSD go in such a small box without having any over heating issues?

I really don't think that's an issue. You're not talking about super-hot power electronics here.

 

[Proformance1]

Just programed the Epic for the first time. super easy with a laptop, thanks! Now I cant wait to get it running