Why don't I ever see dyno's?

[Waveblaster785]

I havent lied first of all. But to try and stay on topic all of the parts you listed above in any combination with a capable hull will perform incredibly in capable hands. If you have problems flipping with any of those combos then practice more. Biggest concern with the above setups is tuning. Show me one pipe that gives you that " night and day" feeling and i will give you a ride on a ski with a different pipe that will make you second guess your results. Tuning tuning tuning.

And there are a few reasons why the TPE was made in cast not billet.

Tuning, could you please explain this concept? I don't understand. When does this happen? Does it happen after I have bolted together all of my parts? I thought that meant I was done. I'm so confused. If I press the green button and it starts, isn't it 100% tuned?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DAG]

TPE or E T
Its obvious Art is reverse engineering everything TPE does, I mean even 66% of the company name is "reversed" engineered lol

 

[masterblaster]

Come on Kahuna, when does a thread involving MB or dyno numbers ever stay on track, they are doomed from the moment they are started...

As for erik mx45, if you don't have all the details on how ET has built his product it is best that you try not to bring light to the situation. Scottie and Glen aren't lying, its just the ET fan boys and MB who want to come to his rescue, all with an agenda.

ET products are inferior to TPE products in all ways. Whatever dyno numbers ET posts, just know that the TPE will stomp it. TPE is more power per dollar spent than any motor out there, the design is the best the industry has seen, period.

Sometimes its just more fun to sit back and eat popcorn with MJ other times its more fun to extract facts throw more oil in the popper,its the way this site runs with a % of its most active posters,read the post count in respect to tpe and much can be learned. Sounds like Zimmy been watchin too much Trump and Tnt is playing the Gop,"we dont condone such talk" They both know it gets the support from the less educated. With that follow up that was one heck of a smart strategy to attempt to separate yourself from the chronies and still leave some doubt on ET. Ill answer your question,Im no pro,Im just a regular guy asking a question,inform all us unknowledgeable peasants please. Educate us with the superiority of dyno curve,power statistics,or metered water data of the v2 compared to the pfp? Youve given us the same data on the RRP. Ive not said anything negative about this pipe or you here,does someone have to be a pro to ask a question here? Company owners voice their opinions through chronies all the time here,3 deg of separation though right? All these motors and pipes are pretty dang impressive these days,But if you wana say your the best i dont think backing it up is to much to ask. It comes down to cost these days as well,any of them will impress the crap outa 99% the end users buying them,The 1% have a pony in the show

 

[tntsuperjet]

Watercraft vs wheeled sports vs dyno
If I dyno a 150hp engine and put it in a street bike with big rear tire the bike will have 100% power contact. So I take off in low gear twist throttle on tire doesn't spin and bike takes off. In low gear low and mid tq will be unuseful. Second gear bike is slower to rev and the tq curve starts to play bigger part 3rd-4th-5th -6th gear tq starts to play big part and power is not isn't the posing factor anymore. So if my dyno says I have X torque and power curve I can gear the bike to run from ok tq to peak hp with each gear change and that will be the best it can be.
Now I have a motor connected to a water pump that has a slip ratio, displacement ratio and velocity ratio that few if any have the ability to measure. So my motor has no true connection to a specific rpm with a solid connection to said numbers.
So being there is 140-162mm pumps, 7-27 pitch props, small hub large hub pumps, 80m-120mm thrust nozzles.
How do you know you have the best load value for the tq curve on paper, now let's add in a lighter loaded motor will require less fuel and shorter pipe BA heavy load that requires more fuel and longer pipe. But very few know what rpm they need to make big power at to have a strong pull out of the whole.
Because this low mid top rpm horse power doesn't mean a dam thing if you have no idea where your drive load becomes taxing on the motor.
So people scream for dyno numbers and I'm sure there isn't one person on the X that has all the tools needed to measure there load values in there boat to know how to utilize the curve values given by dyno chart.
I swapped from a pfp to a v2 to a mod v3.
Mod v3 has 14 less ho at 4600rpm then the v2.
On the x1200 motor rider didn't notice any loss of low end.
14 horse power is no small amount.
But everyone has the conception free ride boats need the most low end power you can get??

 

[DAG]

The conception is free ride boats need the most low end Thrust you can get. Most people seem to talk as if they are interchangeable

 

[E-Tech]

Well good for you, skippy.

Let me put it to you from a different angle..... If you ever get off your a$$ and spend tens of thousands of dollars designing a truly outside the box part (cylinder or whatever) and bring to the public, only to have some jackwad copy it down to the bore, stoke and port timing....... After saying they wouldn't..... I HOPE you have friends and associates who think enough about you, and right and wrong, to bring it to the public to hear. But hey, it's no money out of your pocket, right?

Want to know why there aren't many new products coming out for pwc enthusiast? It's because of $hit like this. Why spend all the money to do it when someone will copy it and just enough hanger's on will defend him for doing it.

SM

If you are implying that i copied Eric's engine than you are way out of line and need help or plain out lying! TPS has 9 intake ports and 3 ex as i remember when i had seen one at Havasu as Eric showed me from what i remember the port angles are completely different.. The ET has 7 intake 1 ex port all cnc ported (no hand work). TPE is cast and in order to get 3 ex ports and some curves is more efficient to cast it. As for port hight i keep them low 124 and 192 on the 1107 and the 967 is 121 by 190. my baseline cylinder was a GP 800 and changed everything from there to make it work. The dyno never lies gains are gains and losses are what they are.
I have been in business for 22 years and seen many cylinders and products Supercharger wheels in my time and learned from there.
I don't need to copy someone else's products. This was a hobby project 3 years ago for myself as all i do is work for others.
That is how the human race evolves things get passed on and along the line thing are improved. That is how today we are where we are with technology.
ET machined from billet now tell me how is it a copy?
Eric builds a good motor no denying that!

 

[scottie mac]

You can say all you want on here, but let me ask you this..... DId you ever reach out to Erik to ask for his port timing? Now, he was a dumba$$ to give it to you. And, I told him that. But, when someone tells you they have no interest in making a 'similar' product, he made the mistake of believing them. It is, what it is. Live and learn. At least I hope he did.

SM

 

[DAG]

If anyone wanted anyone's port specs it takes all of 30mins to figure it out... If Art called Erik he was probably on the phone for several hrs and that's more work than trying to find a way to get off the line with erik lol. kidding. Somewhat lol

 

[zimmy]

zimmy i was not trying to make light of the situation at all i was responding to the fact that mb knows art or that he sent his motor to art period .not true! i know of a situation but thats all ,nor do i care too find out about it, not my problem ! but i thought this was about dyno readings? their are many diff motors but all i here is TPE/ET BASHING WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHATS THE DIFF BETWEEN THEM ?AND WY !LIKE WHAT PIPE MAKES POWER BETTER AND WERE AS TO MAKE A PROPER PURCHASE EX- mybe tnt is better for my setup or mybe its pfp or rrp i have no idea except what people say but frankly who should i trust a tpe guy/dasa guy/php guy or et guy? i have zero agenda just to have my setup be best it can !

Erik, what I don't understand is why you chose to go with a product that is from Canada when you had the TPE shop and testing crew within 2 hours of where you live. They would have gladly helped you tune in your boat with known good data rather having to rely on experimenting at the hands of Torr's advice to get your stuff dialed in. I am sure if you looked at the bills for your boat thus far you haven't saved much money, nor will you save much on your rebuild with that 10mil. You could have gone with the SS 964 and and it would have made as much power as the ET 1107 you are running. I can say this because I have ridden 2 well tuned boats with similar setups, apart from one being an ET 1107 and the other being the TPE 964. The 964 made as much, if not more power than the ET 1107. Thats just the way it is, its a better motor, from a company that has supported THIS SPORT since the 80's. Its a no brainer IMO.

 

[tntsuperjet]

Watercraft vs wheeled sports vs dyno
If I dyno a 150hp engine and put it in a street bike with big rear tire the bike will have 100% power contact. So I take off in low gear twist throttle on tire doesn't spin and bike takes off. In low gear low and mid tq will be unuseful. Second gear bike is slower to rev and the tq curve starts to play bigger part 3rd-4th-5th -6th gear tq starts to play big part and power is not isn't the posing factor anymore. So if my dyno says I have X torque and power curve I can gear the bike to run from ok tq to peak hp with each gear change and that will be the best it can be.
Now I have a motor connected to a water pump that has a slip ratio, displacement ratio and velocity ratio that few if any have the ability to measure. So my motor has no true connection to a specific rpm with a solid connection to said numbers.
So being there is 140-162mm pumps, 7-27 pitch props, small hub large hub pumps, 80m-120mm thrust nozzles.
How do you know you have the best load value for the tq curve on paper, now let's add in a lighter loaded motor will require less fuel and shorter pipe BA heavy load that requires more fuel and longer pipe. But very few know what rpm they need to make big power at to have a strong pull out of the whole.
Because this low mid top rpm horse power doesn't mean a dam thing if you have no idea where your drive load becomes taxing on the motor.
So people scream for dyno numbers and I'm sure there isn't one person on the X that has all the tools needed to measure there load values in there boat to know how to utilize the curve values given by dyno chart.
I swapped from a pfp to a v2 to a mod v3.
Mod v3 has 14 less ho at 4600rpm then the v2.
On the x1200 motor rider didn't notice any loss of low end.
14 horse power is no small amount.
But everyone has the conception free ride boats need the most low end power you can get??

Watercraft vs wheeled sports vs dyno
If I dyno a 150hp engine and put it in a street bike with big rear tire the bike will have 100% power contact. So I take off in low gear twist throttle on tire doesn't spin and bike takes off. In low gear low and mid tq will be unuseful. Second gear bike is slower to rev and the tq curve starts to play bigger part 3rd-4th-5th -6th gear tq starts to play big part and power is not isn't the posing factor anymore. So if my dyno says I have X torque and power curve I can gear the bike to run from ok tq to peak hp with each gear change and that will be the best it can be.
Now I have a motor connected to a water pump that has a slip ratio, displacement ratio and velocity ratio that few if any have the ability to measure. So my motor has no true connection to a specific rpm with a solid connection to said numbers.
So being there is 140-162mm pumps, 7-27 pitch props, small hub large hub pumps, 80m-120mm thrust nozzles.
How do you know you have the best load value for the tq curve on paper, now let's add in a lighter loaded motor will require less fuel and shorter pipe BA heavy load that requires more fuel and longer pipe. But very few know what rpm they need to make big power at to have a strong pull out of the whole.
Because this low mid top rpm horse power doesn't mean a dam thing if you have no idea where your drive load becomes taxing on the motor.
So people scream for dyno numbers and I'm sure there isn't one person on the X that has all the tools needed to measure there load values in there boat to know how to utilize the curve values given by dyno chart.
I swapped from a pfp to a v2 to a mod v3.
Mod v3 has 14 less ho at 4600rpm then the v2.
On the x1200 motor rider didn't notice any loss of low end.
14 horse power is no small amount.
But everyone has the conception free ride boats need the most low end power you can get??

See you couldn't answer a single question
Only ask another question.
And a simple fact.
I never claimed my pipe as best.
Just the most tunable on the market today

 

[waxhead]

Watercraft vs wheeled sports vs dyno
If I dyno a 150hp engine and put it in a street bike with big rear tire the bike will have 100% power contact. So I take off in low gear twist throttle on tire doesn't spin and bike takes off. In low gear low and mid tq will be unuseful. Second gear bike is slower to rev and the tq curve starts to play bigger part 3rd-4th-5th -6th gear tq starts to play big part and power is not isn't the posing factor anymore. So if my dyno says I have X torque and power curve I can gear the bike to run from ok tq to peak hp with each gear change and that will be the best it can be.
Now I have a motor connected to a water pump that has a slip ratio, displacement ratio and velocity ratio that few if any have the ability to measure. So my motor has no true connection to a specific rpm with a solid connection to said numbers.
So being there is 140-162mm pumps, 7-27 pitch props, small hub large hub pumps, 80m-120mm thrust nozzles.
How do you know you have the best load value for the tq curve on paper, now let's add in a lighter loaded motor will require less fuel and shorter pipe BA heavy load that requires more fuel and longer pipe. But very few know what rpm they need to make big power at to have a strong pull out of the whole.
Because this low mid top rpm horse power doesn't mean a dam thing if you have no idea where your drive load becomes taxing on the motor.
So people scream for dyno numbers and I'm sure there isn't one person on the X that has all the tools needed to measure there load values in there boat to know how to utilize the curve values given by dyno chart.
I swapped from a pfp to a v2 to a mod v3.
Mod v3 has 14 less ho at 4600rpm then the v2.
On the x1200 motor rider didn't notice any loss of low end.
14 horse power is no small amount.
But everyone has the conception free ride boats need the most low end power you can get??

stop making sense, the amount of people looking at the wrong end of their skis always makes me laugh.
I remember when I was racing 650 limited in 1993 every race event they were looking at my engine trying to figure out what was up. The would have been way better off with a torch up the pump. A jet sprint guy once said to me 1% pump efficiency gain is equal to 10% hp increase. I have repeated this so many times on here but you cant machine it in billet so no one wants to hear it

 

[E-Tech]

You can say all you want on here, but let me ask you this..... DId you ever reach out to Erik to ask for his port timing? Now, he was a dumba$$ to give it to you. And, I told him that. But, when someone tells you they have no interest in making a 'similar' product, he made the mistake of believing them. It is, what it is. Live and learn. At least I hope he did.

SM

We talked for hours sometimes, It was about pipes and EX manifold and other gains that i found and some port angles that i found that worked. To find out a port height it is very easy just measure a cylinder. I prefered to start low on the ports and work my way up to point where I lost too much lowend. By the way i do the opposite I revers stagger the ports for more lowend so it is much different.
You have never ever seen the inside of my cylinder so how would know!

 

[scottie mac]

Well, you don't have to worry about any more conversations with Erik to troll for info. That ship has sailed, home slice.

SM

 

[Jetfiend]

@scottie mac you misunderstood my statement, I'm not defending anybody. I'm merely turned off by the arrogance that surrounds TPE. As far as who stole what, I really don't care.

As a matter of fact, I recall a company that came out a few years ago and dubbed/copied/stole everyone else's products, to include Tim's chamber, Tobtek's hood strut kit and Factory Pipe to name a few, As I recall you were all over their nutz with great reviews! Remember?

Do you or Zimmy even ride flatwater pole skis? The only skis I've ever known you guys to ride are Blasters/Sport class boats, which IMO don't really have a place in a freestyle dyno thread...

This thread has been enjoyable and entertaining reading Art's dyno testing , Tim's explanations, and lately Zimmy's delusions. It's a shame that some "Fragile Ego's" had to get involved!

 

[waxhead]

The reality is if the cylinders shared the same port timing some one has screwed up. There is such a thing as blow down port time area and the tpe has way more of that There blowdown port time /area is way larger than the et.
I have no dog in the fight but an educated eye can see that the tpe is going to make a crap load more power on a similar tuned boat

 

[scottie mac]

Jet fletcher,

If you are talking about the NYNJA guys, they had permission to make a new run of the TNT pipes. That was common knowledge confirmed by Tim himself. And yes, we did the testing for the pipes and reported the results. I knew what they were going to do as I ran Tim's orginal pipes on my early mods and spec skis.

As for Tobek's bracket, he and I go way back and like I told him, BOTH companies copied the early jetworks (not the same company as the jetworks now) and the Tubby racing version. In Toby's defense, he never new anyone ever made them, in NYNJA's defense, they got permission from Tubby. I've pointed people to both Toby and NYNJA for products. So, try again.

I didn't know having a flippy flippy ski was a prerequisite for calling out right and wrong. Besides, lots of 964s in blasters now.

Whatever, it is what it is, people who want to sport et will do so no matter what anyone else says, much like Zimmy and I are taking up for Erik.

SM

 

[masterblaster]

If anyone wanted anyone's port specs it takes all of 30mins to figure it out... If Art called Erik he was probably on the phone for several hrs and that's more work than trying to find a way to get off the line with erik lol. kidding. Somewhat lol

haahahaha.Strong long wind. This guy above mentioning both tpe and Et are SS and 10 mill so they must be copies is just as comical as the reference one motor is a copy of another because of port timing alone. Its no coincidence some "other" brands,that are not here crying about it... are all using very sim low port timings compared with prev models a few yrs back. Maybe since all have VERY sim pipes to choose from now and Tech advances as years go on and more motors get to the dyno and data logged in water. Its cool that Et was willing to show that info using his personal dyno.

What I am saying is how does a RRP pipe sell when it's 18hp down from a power factor on the Dyno.
Because it's only 7hp down on average horse power from 3k to 6850rpm.
And it's average 11hp better from 2000 to 5600
But everyone wants Dyno

Theres plenty more challenges to a dyno or logger that you didnt list,yet everyone that learns anything from them navigates through them. What a end user doesnt have enough skill to replicate because they are not given proper timing curves,cylinder pressures,water pressures just sends them running to tuning partners to pay,has nothing to do with what pipe has the "potential" for more power. So are these numbers for the RRP irrelevant also?

 

[Big Kahuna]

Lets try this one more time.

 

[jonolove]

Et is in thx again to art dennis and josh

 

[mike b]

I'm merely turned off by the arrogance that surrounds TPE. :)

It's a shame you have a bad view on TPE because of the chit that gets written. I know we joke about stuff between a few of us and i wish you would consider a TPE. Not because of somebody possibly coping who (coincidence on the engine sizes available) but who cares. I think what I have really found is that with TPE they have a well tested product, solid tuner on their side who is on the forum and smart enough not to say anything in this mess because a company partner or owner in the drama saying outrageous statements would really leave a bad taste in any product owners mouth.

I love my TPE products because the power is great, the price is respectable, but most of all Erik doesn't have an ego and always willing to help. Like really this guy spent 6 months with me on the phone once a week knowing I wasn't buying a motor from him. I finally had to after that service. I wouldn't say cast is the best design out there, I would assume billet is better (looks cool too), but I don't know the actual facts about cylinders and all I know is my motors from him work. And the current one, REALLY works haha.

As for dynos, since that is what the thread is about, seems like some will be for a dyno and some will be against and just the way it will be. If it works to bring better products then great, but who cares what paper says (unless you are the designer and testing out different changes). It matters what is on the water. That's like a 1000hp corvette that can't make a straight pass. Yeah its cool and all, you can tell your friends and impress people with your paper, but doesn't look good when you pull it up to a different car. Not a bash on anyone including ET, just keeping with the topic that a paper with numbers seems to be more of a building device to test things compared to a selling tacktic. IMO.