How does one go about measuring pump efficiency?
Why don't I ever see dyno's?
- Thread starter bored&stroked
- Start date
How does one go about measuring pump efficiency?
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
actually Scotty Mac. NYNJA didn't come to me up front and ask if I mind.
They already had the ball rolling and sent things off before I found out. I called them up and said if you gonna do it do it right and copy the super stock chamber.
I supported them doing it because quite a few over the past few years had been asking me to make them and I was to busy doing other things
scottie mac
X-
10/4, thanks for the clarification. I wasn't envolved with the testing of the pipes until produced and you gave your blessing. I had my original TNT chambers and was glad others were able to get their hands on them. That's why the NYNJA guys wanted us to do the testing.
Interesting side note, I took my spec blaster with your TNT chamber to Wavedaze one year and let a certain site know-it-all ride it at flat water Friday. I didn't tell him what was in the ski. He came back in and the first thing he said was 'what is this a big bore?' Lol. I knew right then and there that talking a bunch of $hit on the Internet doesn't equal actually knowing anything about motors, set ups and power.
SM
Interesting side note, I took my spec blaster with your TNT chamber to Wavedaze one year and let a certain site know-it-all ride it at flat water Friday. I didn't tell him what was in the ski. He came back in and the first thing he said was 'what is this a big bore?' Lol. I knew right then and there that talking a bunch of $hit on the Internet doesn't equal actually knowing anything about motors, set ups and power.
SM
tntsuperjet
Tntperformance-engineering.com
- Location
- Georgetown ca
I will add a few sense here.
Working with a few of the factory race teams and seeing that even there one off cylinders where 3D mold printed and cast. When there multiple 5 ax cnc centers in there shop sitting at idle.
Makes one question why won't a company with all the available resources and machines choose to make prototype from castings vs billets??
For there in house resorses the billet been quicker cheaper and 100 % in house.
but they choose to cast.
Some of these motors made over 220 horse power.
When you think about 220hp you say wow pretty good. But when you add in they where only 500cc engines. That brings it to a whole new level.
There some things that bother me a lot.
The Fad, or the common engines in this sport been 785,800,850,900,950,,1000,1050,1100,1200,1400.
Those are the fad engine sizes from past 2 decades or maybe better word is common.
Then TPE comes in the the game few years ago with these whacky ass engine sizes. 964,1105
Then I was at Havasu sitting there and saw E tech with a TPE Cyl in hand looking it all over and Erik from TPE flapping his gums away about all port heights timing ex. Keep in mind Neither of these two know me or who I was standing there. And just over a year later ET has a new Cyl on market with very similar screwy engine size numbers and port timing very very close.
Well actually exactly the same.
Now there not a copy.
The ports are very different but then again the ports can't be the same because you can't copy the TPE CYL in billet. The transfer tunnels are to sweeping to be machine in a conventional manner even with 5 ax. Back to start of my story. This is why the factory race team 3D wax printed and ceramic coated molds to make one off Cyl.
So there more here then just similar bore sizes and port timing.
But I can add some light from a few other markets.
Couple decade's ago billet Cyl where the whole grail and winning most everything. Then TPE Late partner stepped into the game with his designed cast Cyl and obsoleted every billet Cyl on the market within 2yrs. Not one of the billet Cyl could match the power of the cast design.
Some of the same big players in those markets are in this market.
Now the TPE Cyl is the only one of its design in water craft but it's not the only one of its design in the two stroke world.
But if you rattle off any Cyl that was made aftermarket for water craft I can tell you straight up its design was copied from some other market.
7 transfer port, KTM 550 two stroke from 80's, triple exh port rep Honda early 80's, blade power valve suzuki 80's, pressure pod activated power valve Rotax 80's. Water injected pipes Yamaha road racing 70's.
I can go on all day.
Bottom line is evey design in watercraft was copied from another sport from dacades ago.
So basically you can say everything in Jetski market is replicated technology.
So bottom line is who is copying who??
Let's go to Tnt pipe, first pipe was built at factory pipe, we started with a Kawasaki prototype pipe and hacked and slashed it few different areas for couple weeks until we made 17hp more then factory B pipe on a Tnt 785cc 6mm 61x engine and cases that made 121hp at 7150 and when it hit the water it went 1mph slower then the 104hp setup I had. After 6 long days of water testing and hacking we gained 4mph over what I got there with went back to the dyno to find out we lost 4hp from what we designed on the dyno. The V2 makes 6 more horse power at 3800 then the v3, so far not one person can feel the difference. Because v3 makes 2more peak. The short v3 race version has 11 less at 4200 and only one person felt diff there.
So as you can see the dyno is a great tool to measure power, but that power has to be made in a delivery you have to be able to use in the water, and more average power and more peak power only work if there in a way you can prop it. So unles you have a hydro dyno and an engine dyno your numbers are as good as snake oil.
This is the last I have to say about this topic
Working with a few of the factory race teams and seeing that even there one off cylinders where 3D mold printed and cast. When there multiple 5 ax cnc centers in there shop sitting at idle.
Makes one question why won't a company with all the available resources and machines choose to make prototype from castings vs billets??
For there in house resorses the billet been quicker cheaper and 100 % in house.
but they choose to cast.
Some of these motors made over 220 horse power.
When you think about 220hp you say wow pretty good. But when you add in they where only 500cc engines. That brings it to a whole new level.
There some things that bother me a lot.
The Fad, or the common engines in this sport been 785,800,850,900,950,,1000,1050,1100,1200,1400.
Those are the fad engine sizes from past 2 decades or maybe better word is common.
Then TPE comes in the the game few years ago with these whacky ass engine sizes. 964,1105
Then I was at Havasu sitting there and saw E tech with a TPE Cyl in hand looking it all over and Erik from TPE flapping his gums away about all port heights timing ex. Keep in mind Neither of these two know me or who I was standing there. And just over a year later ET has a new Cyl on market with very similar screwy engine size numbers and port timing very very close.
Well actually exactly the same.
Now there not a copy.
The ports are very different but then again the ports can't be the same because you can't copy the TPE CYL in billet. The transfer tunnels are to sweeping to be machine in a conventional manner even with 5 ax. Back to start of my story. This is why the factory race team 3D wax printed and ceramic coated molds to make one off Cyl.
So there more here then just similar bore sizes and port timing.
But I can add some light from a few other markets.
Couple decade's ago billet Cyl where the whole grail and winning most everything. Then TPE Late partner stepped into the game with his designed cast Cyl and obsoleted every billet Cyl on the market within 2yrs. Not one of the billet Cyl could match the power of the cast design.
Some of the same big players in those markets are in this market.
Now the TPE Cyl is the only one of its design in water craft but it's not the only one of its design in the two stroke world.
But if you rattle off any Cyl that was made aftermarket for water craft I can tell you straight up its design was copied from some other market.
7 transfer port, KTM 550 two stroke from 80's, triple exh port rep Honda early 80's, blade power valve suzuki 80's, pressure pod activated power valve Rotax 80's. Water injected pipes Yamaha road racing 70's.
I can go on all day.
Bottom line is evey design in watercraft was copied from another sport from dacades ago.
So basically you can say everything in Jetski market is replicated technology.
So bottom line is who is copying who??
Let's go to Tnt pipe, first pipe was built at factory pipe, we started with a Kawasaki prototype pipe and hacked and slashed it few different areas for couple weeks until we made 17hp more then factory B pipe on a Tnt 785cc 6mm 61x engine and cases that made 121hp at 7150 and when it hit the water it went 1mph slower then the 104hp setup I had. After 6 long days of water testing and hacking we gained 4mph over what I got there with went back to the dyno to find out we lost 4hp from what we designed on the dyno. The V2 makes 6 more horse power at 3800 then the v3, so far not one person can feel the difference. Because v3 makes 2more peak. The short v3 race version has 11 less at 4200 and only one person felt diff there.
So as you can see the dyno is a great tool to measure power, but that power has to be made in a delivery you have to be able to use in the water, and more average power and more peak power only work if there in a way you can prop it. So unles you have a hydro dyno and an engine dyno your numbers are as good as snake oil.
This is the last I have to say about this topic
waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
im not sure you really can. It's more of a saying than a science. I used to tune with a gauge that measured my g-force. After all that what I wanted up the start straight the max acceleration. The interesting thing I found was that the lowest pitch prop did not always give me the same acceleration as a higher pitch prop. It really depended on the engine. To short a prop on a tough engine and you loose quite a lot of acceleration as well as top speed
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waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
On another note the only cylinder here that could afford to run that lower port timing on the exhaust is the tpe. The other cylinder with a single exhaust port wold still have way to much pressure in the cylinder when the transfers opened and actually stall or even worse reverse the flow in the transfers. I bet if you got that single exhaust port cylinder and raised the exhaust port timing up you would get gains every where. The only way they could over come this is by making a massive exhaust port that would reduce the ring life ALOT!!! I have no dog in this fight but damn I wish tpe made a triple cylinder. It wouldn't have the same asymmetrical transfers in the middle but I think the power they are getting is from the exhaust not so much the transfers. Of course that helps as well
Do you actually read what you are typing?
- Location
- outer banks
it did not matter to me that he is from canada ,im not against tpe or anybody ,i am a consumer who works hard.i am not going to be anybody special in this sport or hobby, .i am a mx guy who also loves to ripp up water that being said i looked at prices and my options and how much i wanted to dish out i chose et for the price ,power,looks and for me it runs great and well lets just say i had enough money left to by a new fmf exhaust for my kx450f
erik
- Location
- Amherst NH
Cant get the transfer design in billet that TPE has in cast. Also cast dissipates heat better. Seems most people pick bling over performance.
waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
Do you actually warranty what you sell ??Do you actually read what you are typing?
But no I didn't read over it was early in the morning before the gym . But other than a few grammar mistakes please show me where I was wrong. Or are you just being a grammar nazi. If your coming here to just pick a fight your going to get the thread closed again
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Do you even know how a 2 stroke works? or even better how a 2 stroke pipe works?
Now that's some funny chit right there! LOL!
Big Kahuna
Administrator
- Location
- Tuscaloosa, AL
Ever wonder why a billet cylinder will have half a dozen water outlets.
waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
Yes I have a rough idea.
Let me explain it to you
When the exhaust port opens there is a set time before the transfer opens sends the incoming charge into the cylinder.
The amount of pressure drop between the exhaust port opening and the transfers opening is called blow down and can be expressed as port time area as it not only measured in degrees but also in the area of the exhaust port.
If the pressure does not drop enough the incoming mixture up the transfers stalls and in bad cases reverses (61x is a classic example)
If you have a multiple exhaust port cylinder then of course the pressure can drop faster in a given time than a single port. Thus you can get away with a lower exhaust port on a multiple exhaust port cylinder than on a single port.
If you think that just using the pipe to do all the scavenging is the right thing then you really have only half the equation.
The fact you find what I wrote prior as funny worries me for your customers and Im starting to think maybe you did copy the port timing of the tpe cylinder due to lack of knowledge of where to place your ports
I know you have been building cylinders etc for a lot of years. Lada have been building cars for a lot of years as well, No one has accused them of being a Ferrari
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No need have all the undercuts under the bolt holes, same cooling flow as a cast cylinder 2 x 1/2 outlets on the head all is needed. just the pic to the left.
On a small note: ET has been making billet cylinders for 14 years for the sled market.
still hold the record in the 1/4 mile 8.70 at 151 mph N/A 890cc Firecat.
That was a 5 intake port and 3 ex 90mm piston
Big Kahuna
Administrator
- Location
- Tuscaloosa, AL
I didnt phrase that correctly, Talking about the number of pissers coming out of the hull. Typically you see 4-6 now where before with any cast setup it was 2-3 pissers. But all this is about is temperature management. Cast dissipates heat quicker, with the billet just pass more water faster to do the same thing. Not saying its a bad thing, just different. I am still running a 61x cylinder. No dog in this hunt.
speedysprocket
Alex
- Location
- Chesapeake, VA
I don't think Erik has any intentions of a triple yamaha cylinder, but maybe you could build a triple Polaris with these cylinders...
http://thecrankshopvt.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_23&products_id=404
Same casting EME and Power Factor use and pretty similar to Erik's...
My goal is to have fun! Build a user friendly , Reliable engine package that make a hard hitting all the way from low to mid and also a good topend power. Not looking for that 5-6 extra hp at top to loose 10-15hp at 5-6000rpm. That was my findings.
That is what I used the dyno for and It is a real tool and l have used it for 17 years. It is always easy to raise the ports but not
so easy to lower them. Waxhead we all get it TPE has a good cylinder kit! does that make you happy. Nobody ever said otherwise.
I will give you a hint theories are not 100 % only a calculation not real world. Efficiency !!!!!
That is what I used the dyno for and It is a real tool and l have used it for 17 years. It is always easy to raise the ports but not
so easy to lower them. Waxhead we all get it TPE has a good cylinder kit! does that make you happy. Nobody ever said otherwise.
I will give you a hint theories are not 100 % only a calculation not real world. Efficiency !!!!!
waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
Why would you assume or implie that what i write is a theory, Do you not think other people have tested.
As i said I don't have a dog in the fight or i didn't, im just saying it how I see it from years of racing, porting and being successful at is as well
I talk theories around beers with mates or when i am lying in bed thinking and cant sleep, Then I test so that I have facts. Talking about theories on here will only get you in trouble.
Maybe the laws of physics do not apply to you but they sure do to us other poor engine builders
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waxhead
wannabe backflipper
- Location
- gold coast
going off your dyno sheet I see your point, 5-6000 rpm would seem like the weak area in the power output of your engine, You really cant afford to make that dip any bigger
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